========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:40:25 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: The more technical aspects of transfer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alright. I've first-drafted almost every part of my part of the RPG, and I'm up to the *exceptions* in transfer, and the more technical aspects - like exact definitions for selur, selyur, selur nager and selyur nager, and what exactly -is- a fanir. Does anyone have anything which I can read which will clarify this? I have an explanation of standard transfer which I am happy with, and I suspect that I've actually -described- selur, selyur, etc.. just in my best bastardised english-simelan blend. On a related note.. is the Houses list available on the net somewhere? I'm doing a short list of Houses for the RPG (just the ones actually mentioned in the books, so far) and I need a reference for some of them - Mountain Bells, for instance, isn't defined in nearly so much detail as Zeor in the books. And may I use that reference, pending JL approving any of my work at all? Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:38:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Hi! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCB6C3.27D9E2C0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCB6C3.27D9E2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there! I just subscribed to the list, so I am kind of new around here, and I wanted to introduce myself. My name is Laurie, and I have been an avid reader of the Sime-Gen universe since the early 1980's. Darkover 1996 (my first Darkover) was my first encounter with others: both readers and writers who also love this universe. I am very excited that there are actually "others like myself". Meeting Jacqueline Lichtenberg at Faith Day was a highlight of the convention: she is just as nice as I thought she would be. Letting you know a little bit about myself, I live in Pennsylvania, with my companion, Mary, and our three cats. She is an accountant in the "real world", and writes science fiction mostly in the Star Trek universe, and often sells her fanzines at conventions. I am a computer programmer, and I write too, but poetry, not fiction. As I am not a fiction writer, anyone is welcome to use any ideas that I may develop in the course of discussing this universe. Mary is not a Sime-Gen fan, and identifies therefore as an Ancient, although I think she has definite Companion potential. I am probably a ren-Sime, born Out-Territory. I do not have a householding of my own, but would love to affiliate with an existing householding. We will be at Darkover in November, and hope that the Sime-Gen community will be gathering again. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCB6C3.27D9E2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi there! I just subscribed to the = list, so I am kind of new around here, and I wanted to introduce = myself.

My name is Laurie, and I have been an avid reader of the = Sime-Gen universe since the early 1980's. Darkover 1996 (my first = Darkover) was my first encounter with others: both readers and writers = who also love this universe. I am very excited that there are actually = "others like myself". Meeting Jacqueline Lichtenberg at Faith = Day was a highlight of the convention: she is just as nice as I thought = she would be.

Letting you know a little bit about myself, I live = in Pennsylvania, with my companion, Mary, and our three cats. She is an = accountant in the "real world", and writes science fiction = mostly in the Star Trek universe, and often sells her fanzines at = conventions. I am a computer programmer, and I write too, but poetry, = not fiction. As I am not a fiction writer, anyone is welcome to use any = ideas that I may develop in the course of discussing this universe. =

Mary is not a Sime-Gen fan, and identifies therefore as an = Ancient, although I think she has definite Companion potential. I am = probably a ren-Sime, born Out-Territory.

I do not have a = householding of my own, but would love to affiliate with an existing = householding.

We will be at Darkover in November, and hope that = the Sime-Gen community will be gathering again. =





------=_NextPart_000_01BCB6C3.27D9E2C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-08-29 11:13:18 EDT, you write: << The anthropologists' word "moiety" ("one of two groups to which every member of a culture must belong, with mutual exclusion") comes to mind. >> I like this best so far! Like gender it gives a two valence range (for the most part) Usage: "Mom I've fallen in love!" "Uh-unh..... what gender, boy or girl?" "Mom!" "What moiety?" "Mom...." "Is he/she a doctor or a channel?" <> Of course, moiety's an unusual word for vernacular use.... I bet there'd be more than one term, once each side decided the other counted as human... Just as we use "sex" for gender ..... "type", "caste", "persuasion" come to mind.... "Race" is perhaps too loaded a term for us writers to use, but it also fits.... fully members of the same species, etc.... Perhaps they'd use the analogue of "color" .... "What hand is he?" (tentacled or not)... or "armedness" equivalent to 'handedness" now..... my 2 cents pmn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:12:51 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: The more technical aspects of transfer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenn Vesperman wrote: > > Alright. I've first-drafted almost every part of my part of the RPG, and I'm > up to the *exceptions* in transfer, and the more technical aspects - like > exact definitions for selur, selyur, selur nager and selyur nager, and what > exactly -is- a fanir. There is a page with definitions on the net at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284/sgterms.html I checked on that page quickly, selyur nager is on that page, but I didn't see any of the others. I have the definition of a fanir from _Unto_: Fanir: A Donor whose nager has a peculiar property sometimes described as akin to the musician's perfect pitch. [cut Imrahan specific] A fanir affects every Sime near him by drawing that Sime's selyn consumption rate into hte fanir's own selyn production rate. [cut mathmatics] The other books I had (that I could find!) didn't have a definition list... I am not secure enough in my Sime/Gen knowledge to tell you what the other words mean... > Does anyone have anything which I can read which will clarify this? I have an > explanation of standard transfer which I am happy with, and I suspect that > I've actually -described- selur, selyur, etc.. just in my best bastardised > english-simelan blend. > > On a related note.. is the Houses list available on the net somewhere? I'm > doing a short list of Houses for the RPG (just the ones actually mentioned in > the books, so far) and I need a reference for some of them - Mountain Bells, > for instance, isn't defined in nearly so much detail as Zeor in the books. > There's a House registar at: http://home1.gte.net/torun/register.htm > > And may I use that reference, pending JL approving any of my work at all? > > Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:43:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: downloading programs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Everyone! I'm home from WorldCon, very tired. Jacqueline won't get home till tomorrow. I'm working my way through 51 e-mail messages, two-thirds of which are digests, so I won't be posting long posts for a while. But you'll want to know that the "Atcha!" t-shirts are gorgeous, and attracted all kinds of attention, and that Friday night's room party was a huge success. I'm sure you'll hear more details soon as other attendees get home. Meanwhile, here is some information that was sent to me while I was away, about a couple of _free_ programs that will help people who are having trouble download stuff from the WWW. Check 'em out. Later! Jean From: "Curt Davis" (by way of Michael Schelling ) To: WebAndStuff@xxxxxx.net Subject: [WebandStuff] More software Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 10:57:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970901105709.006b9280@xxxxxx.net> I came across 2 really great programs that I wanted to share with everyone... They are FTP (File Transfer Protocol - file downloading) programs. These programs are different from most other FTP programs though because they offer BOTH http and ftp downloads AND they have an auto resume feature. Oh, did I mentioned that they are both FREEware? I would highly recommend that everyone have at least one of these programs available for those times that you might need it... Here is an overview of the programs: I just downloaded an FTP program yesterday called Bulletproof FTP... http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~aconnell/ Bulletproof FTP supports http as I just downloaded the Vampire FTP client with Bulletproof :O (also listed as a feature along with auto-resume) Bulletproof will import all of your prior FTP sites from CuteFTP, WS_FTP, or FTP Explorer. It also supports resume and will keep hammering a site until you get your file... It's FREE too. Check out the supported features here WOW: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~aconnell/whatitdoes.html THE OTHER ftp client is Vampire FTP... it is a great FREE FTP client that you can get here: http://www.kulichki.com/~vampire/software/nvamp24.zip Home: http://www.kulichki.com/~vampire/ This one was tough! I kind of liked Bulletproof FTP but the interface on Vampire FTP was very cool... The Solution? Get em both :O SUNNY Arizona, where the web pages load FASTer... *************************************************** Don't forget to visit: Curt's Corner in Cyberspace http://www.syspac.com/~cdavis -=- AND -=- Curt's Comprehensive Resource Tools http://www.syspac.com/~cdavis/tools.html *************************************************** Jean Lorrah A21711f@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:51:42 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: The more technical aspects of transfer << Jenn Vesperman wrote: > > Alright. I've first-drafted almost every part of my part of the RPG, and I'm > up to the *exceptions* in transfer, and the more technical aspects - like > exact definitions for selur, selyur, selur nager and selyur nager, and what > exactly -is- a fanir. There is a page with definitions on the net at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284/sgterms.html I checked on that page quickly, selyur nager is on that page, but I didn't see any of the others. I have the definition of a fanir from _Unto_: Fanir: A Donor whose nager has a peculiar property sometimes described as akin to the musician's perfect pitch. [cut Imrahan specific] A fanir affects every Sime near him by drawing that Sime's selyn consumption rate into hte fanir's own selyn production rate. [cut mathmatics] The other books I had (that I could find!) didn't have a definition list... I am not secure enough in my Sime/Gen knowledge to tell you what the other words mean... > Does anyone have anything which I can read which will clarify this? I have an > explanation of standard transfer which I am happy with, and I suspect that > I've actually -described- selur, selyur, etc.. just in my best bastardised > english-simelan blend. > > On a related note.. is the Houses list available on the net somewhere? I'm > doing a short list of Houses for the RPG (just the ones actually mentioned in > the books, so far) and I need a reference for some of them - Mountain Bells, > for instance, isn't defined in nearly so much detail as Zeor in the books. > There's a House registar at: http://home1.gte.net/torun/register.htm > > And may I use that reference, pending JL approving any of my work at all? > > Jenn V. Suggestion: Wait for Jean and Jacqueline to return for your Simelan definitions unless you can find them in the books or on the site mentioned as part of Geocities. If you can't find the words you're looking for, they will give you the meanings when they see your list posts. As far as using householding names, there are certain restrictions to using some (see Torun's householding registry page). If you are submitting your story for eventual posting to the CZ Website, JL has to approve of it anyway...not just the Householdings, but the entire story. Her approval of submissions has been done for more than 20 years. I think the information on how to submit a story is also on one of the websites. ---- Karen Litman, Editor, "A Companion In Zeor" fanzine. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:40:35 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! In-Reply-To: <970828151149_-200159961@xxxxxx.com> from "Margaret Carter" at Aug 28, 97 03:14:02 pm Content-Type: text Margaret wrote: > Thank you, Hannah! I can't fathom how many otherwise literate and very > bright people have a mental block about "its." The reason, of course, is that "its" is an exception to the rule -- almost every other possessive is formed by adding "'s" to the noun. So every time you use it you have to remember it's an exception to the rule. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:47:42 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Hi! In-Reply-To: <199709011537.LAA11288@xxxxxx.net> from "LIONESS1" at Sep 1, 97 10:38:16 am Content-Type: text Laurie wrote: > My name is Laurie, and I have been an avid reader of the Sime-Gen universe > since the early 1980's. Darkover 1996 (my first Darkover) was my first > encounter with others: both readers and writers who also love this > universe. I am very excited that there are actually "others like myself". Welcome to the mailing list and the online community! A fair amount happened at Worldcon, but I'll let Anne and Jean and JL tell their part of it. Right now I'm still catching up on the mail that came in while I was gone, so I don't have a lot of time. More later. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:04:47 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: Email change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you very much! JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:10:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! Margaret wrote: > Thank you, Hannah! I can't fathom how many otherwise literate and very > bright people have a mental block about "its." Tony wrote: > The reason, of course, is that "its" is an exception to the rule -- > almost every other possessive is formed by adding "'s" to the noun. > So every time you use it you have to remember it's an exception to > the rule. When I was a little kid my mother taught me the rule of: never use "it's" unless you could have used "it is" instead. Worked for me.... --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:53:56 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! In-Reply-To: <970902103645_1582735648@xxxxxx.com> from "Kaas Baichtal" at Sep 2, 97 11:10:17 am Content-Type: text > > Margaret wrote: > > Thank you, Hannah! I can't fathom how many otherwise literate and very > > bright people have a mental block about "its." > > > Tony wrote: > > The reason, of course, is that "its" is an exception to the rule -- > > almost every other possessive is formed by adding "'s" to the noun. > > So every time you use it you have to remember it's an exception to > > the rule. > > When I was a little kid my mother taught me the rule of: never use "it's" > unless you could have used "it is" instead. Worked for me.... True -- but it's still a separate rule. English has been collapsing separate rules into general rules since Alfred's time (as have many other languages; it's just more obvious with our own.) I suspect that at some point "it's" will become the posessive _and_ the contraction. Of course, I'm going down fighting all the way :) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:06:55 CST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re[2]: Remember that Apostrophe! In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:40:35 CST >Margaret wrote: >> Thank you, Hannah! I can't fathom how many otherwise literate and very >> bright people have a mental block about "its." > And then Tony wrote: >The reason, of course, is that "its" is an exception to the rule -- >almost every other possessive is formed by adding "'s" to the noun. >So every time you use it you have to remember it's an exception to >the rule. No, it is not an exception to the rule. The rule is that possessives of _nouns_ are formed with apostrophes, while possessives of pronouns are not. "It" is a pronoun. (And yes, that means that the word "one" is a noun, and not a pronoun despite all the dictionaries that call it one. The word "one" fits nowhere in the declensions of pronouns.) Jean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:29:30 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Re[2]: Remember that Apostrophe! In-Reply-To: <02SEP97.12004794.0151.MUSIC@xxxxxx.EDU> from "Jean Lorrah" at Sep 2, 97 11:06:55 am Content-Type: text > >Margaret wrote: > >> Thank you, Hannah! I can't fathom how many otherwise literate and very > >> bright people have a mental block about "its." > > > And then Tony wrote: > >The reason, of course, is that "its" is an exception to the rule -- > >almost every other possessive is formed by adding "'s" to the noun. > >So every time you use it you have to remember it's an exception to > >the rule. Jean wrote: > No, it is not an exception to the rule. The rule is that possessives of > _nouns_ are formed with apostrophes, while possessives of pronouns are > not. "It" is a pronoun. (And yes, that means that the word "one" is a > noun, and not a pronoun despite all the dictionaries that call it one. > The word "one" fits nowhere in the declensions of pronouns.) Jean Actually, there really isn't a rule for pronoun possessives; they're highly irregular and must be memorized (I/my, you/yours, he/his, she/hers, we/ours, they/their, it/its). "Add '-rs'" would probably be as close as you could come to the rule, and even then three of seven are exceptions. The difficulty with "its" (and I could have been clearer earlier) is that its rule overlaps with the noun-posessive rule, and so people tend to collapse the one into the other. Why memorize two rules when you can get by with only one? The same process has been at work since Proto-Indo-European on noun endings ... which is why _most_ English nouns end in -d/ed, but a hundred or so (the "strong nouns") are irregular and must be memorized. (There are several rules operating on them, but I don't know the details.) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:09:15 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Email again Wow! It's great to sign on and find MAIL! I've been going into withdrawl....I hope you guys don't leave en masse again! CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Organization: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig Subject: Religous thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to say that the Religous thread has been one of my favorites, and I wanted to ask all concerned if it would be OK to post some or all of it on the Rathorite's Retreat site. I think that it would be an appropriate place for it. Follow Your Bliss!! Don P.S. How did Worldcon go? -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Jean wrote: >> No, it is not an exception to the rule. The rule is that possessives of >> _nouns_ are formed with apostrophes, while possessives of pronouns are >> not. "It" is a pronoun. (And yes, that means that the word "one" is a >> noun, and not a pronoun despite all the dictionaries that call it one. >> The word "one" fits nowhere in the declensions of pronouns.) Jean And Tony responded, >Actually, there really isn't a rule for pronoun possessives; they're >highly irregular and must be memorized (I/my, you/yours, he/his, she/hers, >we/ours, they/their, it/its). "Add '-rs'" would probably be as close >as you could come to the rule, and even then three of seven are >exceptions. The difficulty with "its" (and I could have been clearer >earlier) is that its rule overlaps with the noun-posessive rule, and >so people tend to collapse the one into the other. Why memorize two >rules when you can get by with only one? Tony, look at the rule I gave again. It _is_ a rule, a _very simple_ rule that says nothing about _how_ pronouns form possessives, but only that the _don't_ do it with an apostrophe. That's all. All. And it's true. >The same process has been at work since Proto-Indo-European on noun >endings ... which is why _most_ English nouns end in -d/ed, but a >hundred or so (the "strong nouns") are irregular and must be >memorized. (There are several rules operating on them, but I don't >know the details.) Those are verbs, not nouns, and the process did not begin in Proto-Indo-European. The shift from "strong" verbs (drink, drank, drunk; eat, ate, eaten; fly, flew, etc.) to weak verbs (jump, jumped; crack, cracked, etc.) is characteristic only of _Germanic_ languages, and _not_ of other sub-families of Indo-European. This one is in process, and the process will not end until all strong verbs in Germanic (and only Germanic) languages become weak. Currently in process of changing in English are dive-dove into dive-dived, and forecast-forecast into forecast-forecasted. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: "Grant Kendicott vs. the Tecton" I managed to photocopy about 5 sets of Linda Frankel's "Grant Kendicott" story from Zeor Forum #3 for anyone who is interested. This was shortly discussed on the list as there is a Gay character story line in it. It is about 20 pages at 5 cents a page (plus postage). Anyone who is interested in receiving the story, please contact me privately through (KLitman323@xxxxxx.com). Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:44:30 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! Just don't think of "its" as equivalent to a possessive noun (which is formed with an apostrophe). Mentally file it in the "pronoun" category, with "my," "his," etc. -- they don't have any apostrophes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 20:07:11 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Re[2]: Remember that Apostrophe! Yeah, what Jean said! I really must stick to the routine of reading ALL the posts before responding. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:15:48 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: happy News! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit !!!!!!! (ô ô) +-----oOO----(_)----------------+ | Got a message from | | Anne for ya! | +------------------------oOO----+ |__| |__| || || ooO Ooo //////////////////////////////////////////////////////// In a message dated 97-08-26 23:25:35 EDT, you write: Hi all! My sister had her baby son tonight at around 6. I cvan't remember all the details but mom and baby are healthy. His name is Daniel Alexander Cohen. Oh I am a happy auntie! Thank god I'm well enough to enjoy this day! Hugs all around! Lisa Congratulations and my best to mother, child and all of you. Being an auntie is the very best. Hope you have as much fun at it as I do. Talk to you later! Anne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:19:32 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: good news not releated to Sime/Gen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit !!!!!!! (ô ô) +-----oOO----(_)----------------+ | Got a message from | | Anne for ya! | +------------------------oOO----+ |__| |__| || || ooO Ooo //////////////////////////////////////////////////////// In a message dated 97-08-27 01:41:46 EDT, you write: I wanted to announce my good news again...though it doesn't have anything to do with Sime~Gen, OTHER THAN JL is the person who really helped me learn the basics of writing...I just sold books number four and five...my editor has one more thing to do on book three and then is going to call my agent to negoiciate the contract for the next two books. She was so sweet, she said she loved my writing and sees me as a continuing writer with them...I still can't believe it was only Oct. that I sold my first book...been rather dizzying.... CherylW Go for it Cheryl. Talk to you later! Anne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:24:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! It certainly says something about our culture (and perhaps humanity in general) that a person's reputation and intellectual stature can be thrown into question by the presence or absence of one tiny mark less than a millimeter high. (No wonder Farrises are so arrogant, they probably zlin billions of missing and extra apostrophes in everybody they encounter!) --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Something funny to brighten your day. WHAT IS THE PROPER AGE TO GET MARRIED?? "Once I'm done with kindergarten, I'm going to find me a wife!" (Tom, 5) WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?? "On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually gets them interested enough to go for the second date." (Mike, 10) WHEN IS IT OKAY TO KISS SOMEONE?? "You should never kiss a girl unless you have enough bucks to buy her a big ring and her own VCR, 'cause she'll want to have videos of the wedding." (Jim, 10) "Never kiss in front of other people. It's a big embarrassing thing if anybody sees you. But if nobody sees you, I might be willing to try it with a handsome boy, but just for a few hours." (Kelly, 9) THE GREAT DEBATE: IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?? "It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need somebody to clean up after them!" (Lynette, 9) "It gives me a headache to think about that stuff. I'm just a kid. I don't need that kind of trouble." (Kenny, 7) CONCERNING WHY LOVE HAPPENS BETWEEN TWO PARTICULAR PEOPLE "No one is sure why it happens, but I heard it has something to do with how you smell. That's why perfume and deodorant are so popular." (Jan, 9) "I think you're supposed to get shot with an arrow or something, but the rest of it isn't supposed to be so painful." (Harlen, 8) ON WHAT FALLING IN LOVE IS LIKE "Like an avalanche where you have to run for your life." (Roger, 9) "If falling in love is anything like learning how to spell, I don't want to do it. It takes too long." (Leo, 7) ON THE ROLE OF GOOD LOOKS IN LOVE "If you want to be loved by somebody who isn't already in your family, it doesn't hurt to be beautiful." (Jeanne, 8) "It isn't always just how you look. Look at me. I'm handsome like anything and I haven't got anybody to marry me yet." (Gary, 7) "Beauty is skin deep. But how rich you are can last a long time." (Christine, 9) CONCERNING WHY LOVERS OFTEN HOLD HANDS "They want to make sure their rings don't fall off because they paid good money for them." (Dave, 8) CONFIDENTIAL OPINIONS ABOUT LOVE "I'm in favor of love as long as it doesn't happen when 'The Simpsons' is on television." (Anita, 6) "Love will find you, even if you are trying to hide from it. I have been trying to hide from it since I was five, but the girls keep finding me." (Bobby, 8) "I'm not rushing into being in love. I'm finding fourth grade hard enough." (Regina, 10) THE PERSONAL QUALITIES NECESSARY TO BE A GOOD LOVER "One of you should know how to write a check. Because, even if you have tons of love, there is still going to be a lot of bills." (Ava, 8) SOME SUREFIRE WAYS TO MAKE A PERSON FALL IN LOVE WITH YOU "Tell them that you own a whole bunch of candy stores." (Del, 6) "Don't do things like have smelly, green sneakers. You might get attention, but attention ain't the same thing as love." (Alonzo, 9) "One way is to take the girl out to eat. Make sure it's something she likes to eat. French fries usually works for me." (Bart, 9) HOW CAN YOU TELL IF TWO ADULTS EATING DINNER AT A RESTAURANT ARE IN LOVE?? "Just see if the man picks up the check. That's how you can tell if he's in love." (John, 9) "Lovers will just be staring at each other and their food will get cold. Other people care more about the food." (Brad, 8) "It's love if they order one of those desserts that are on fire. They like to order those because it's just like how their hearts are...on fire." (Christine, 9) WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE THINKING WHEN THEY SAY "I LOVE YOU" "The person is thinking: Yeah, I really do love him. But I hope he showers at least once a day." (Michelle, 9) HOW A PERSON LEARNS TO KISS "You learn it right on the spot when the gooshy feelings get the best ofyou." (Doug, 7) WHEN IS IT OKAY TO KISS SOMEONE?? "It's never okay to kiss a boy. They always slobber all over you...That's why I stopped doing it." (Jean, 10) HOW TO MAKE LOVE ENDURE "Spend most of your time loving instead of going to work." (Tom, 7) "Don't forget your wife's name...That will mess up the love." (Roger, 8) "Be a good kisser. It might make your wife forget that you never take out the trash." (Randy, 8) - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Founding400 Comments: cc: Torun Almer , "DreamSpy1@aol.com" , "N. G. Lichtenberg" -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: The Worldcon Party was a resounding success -- due to the unstinting efforts of "Captain Button" and Larry Ulrey and Leigh Kimmel our Listowner -- Larry provided the room space and lots of help, and Captain Button did a thousand things, not least being publicity and flyers and T-shirts, and Leigh worked hard on this party - then stood (on her tired feet from working the dealer's table all day) with Captain Button and Larry who were also exhausted, passing out flyers, snagging folks who walked by in the halls, and generally partying until after midnight. Yes, our T-shirts with Kaas's "atcha" hand as seen on the websites arrived, and you should have seen the eyes of people we showed them to. (You can still order one for yourself -- if you missed out on the post with the data email KBaichtal@xxxxxx.com for ordering info.) Oh, and they indeed turned out to be a fabulous example of a collector's First Edition because of a typo in my name and a typo in one of the URLs on the back. When that print is corrected, the second edition will be identical but easily distinguished from the first by those in the know. At the party we collected filled out FOUNDING 400 registrations - and Captain Button made a special trip out in the heat to fetch the pile from his car to give me so we could count and report when I got home. With what was handed to me here and there, we have 14 new Founding 400's plus at least half that in people who say they'll buy the illustrated pb but not the hc. It could be that those people saw ILLUSTRATED and didn't realize that signing up for the pb won't contribute to getting the contract. We also passed out a lot of flyers that people took home -- with our webring URLs and listserve info etc. etc. plus the Founding 400 signup info. I now have a fat file of data to enter. My eyeball guestimate without close counting of what I've got here is that we're about to near the 150 point. Also at Worldcon, Jean and I talked nonstop with and about her musician characters from Gulf Territory -- the main characters in the short story she has on the market. They keep confessing to her intimate details about their private lives. Right in the midst of one of these conversations -- which was about the effect on such very private people of becoming the first Cross -Territory Border Media Phenomenon after Unity -- we got the news about Princess Di and that set us off on a deeper analysis of the forces that produce media phenomena and the effect those forces have on people. We are now gearing up for Darkover where we hold the annual Sime~Gen gathering on the east coast, and Leigh is mulling over ways and means of launching a well-planned (as opposed to last minute) Room Party at Bucconeer (next year's Worldcon in Baltimore). FOR ANYONE ON THE LIST who hasn't signed up for the next (as yet uncontracted for) Sime~Gen novel that I will write, here's the form to email back to me -- post on newsgroups, bulletin boards etc. or send to friends: TO: Fans of Jacqueline Lichtenberg and the Sime~Gen Novels Are you eager to read a brand new, never before published Sime~Gen Novel? Do you want to be sure you don't miss out on the hardcover? Would you would be willing to pay $25.00 for the hardcover edition of the first Sime~Gen novel written by Jacqueline Lichtenberg in the '90's? If just four hundred people are willing to put their names and addresses on this mailing list - which will not be sold to junk mail advertisers - this new novel will be published. Reserve your copy "The Farris Channel" today and become a member of "The Founding Four Hundred." Fill in the coupon below and send it to: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Box 290 Monsey, NY 10952 Or by email to ambrovzeor@xxxxxx.com Send no money. This is strictly a survey. Information will only be used to mail you an order form for the next Sime~Gen novel. Name ___________________________________________________ Street Address ________________________________________ City/state/zip _________________________________________ e-mail ___________________________________________________ Check all that apply: _________ I would pay $25.00 for a hardcover copy of "The Farris Channel". __________I would pay $15.00 for an illustrated trade paperback of "The Farris Channel". _________I would send in a check to reserve my copy of either book once the manuscript had been sent to the printer and a release date had been announced. _________ send me ________ flyers so I can help spread the word. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: Kraith Comments: cc: Jonathan Andrew Sheen -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- - Jonathan Andrew Sheen (jsheen@xxxxxx.com) (who apparently is not on the Listserve) writes: Here's a dopey question: I've been hearing tantalizing little snippets about "Kraith" for years, but never actually seen it. Have you thought about making it availlable on the 'net, like so much Star Trek Fan Fiction? Have you done so? I'd be very interested. Thank you. Jonathan Andrew Sheen http://www.leviathanstudios.com/~jsheen Leviathan of the GEI (Detached.) jsheen@xxxxxx.com "Booger!" -- John Caravello - Anyone with spare copies of Kraith to sell let him know. Thank You, JL Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:17:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Remember that Apostrophe! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:24 AM 9/3/97 -0400, Kaas wrote: > >(No wonder Farrises are so arrogant, they probably zlin billions of missing >and extra apostrophes in everybody they encounter!) > Ha ha ha ha he he he he! LOL LOL LOL! Jean ambrov Keon Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: fanir Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Fanir: A Donor whose nager has a peculiar property sometimes described > as akin to the musician's perfect pitch. [cut Imrahan specific] A fanir > affects every Sime near him by drawing that Sime's selyn consumption > rate into hte fanir's own selyn production rate. [cut mathmatics] > Yes--Jacqueline is right. Tony is a fanir, and completely untrained until he starts performing to Zhag's shiltpron. He is a musician with both kinds of perfect pitch--hence he can drive both Simes and Gens wild. And does. Tony never gets more Companion's training than he requires to take care of Zhag--and both these guys are rough-and-tumble. They _like_ transfer with a sharp edge. I know where the original inspiration for these people came from, but what has grown out of it is beyond my ken--they just keep telling me the most amazing things! BTW, I will be adding the revelations from WorldCon to the info that was posted before the con, so please don't bother to read that until it has been revised. There's lots more brainstorming to report. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In a message dated 97-09-03 09:12:15 EDT, you write: << Those are verbs, not nouns, and the process did not begin in Proto-Indo-European. The shift from "strong" verbs (drink, drank, drunk; eat, ate, eaten; fly, flew, etc.) to weak verbs (jump, jumped; crack, cracked, etc.) is characteristic only of _Germanic_ languages, and _not_ of other sub-families of Indo-European. This one is in process, and the process will not end until all strong verbs in Germanic (and only Germanic) languages become weak. Currently in process of changing in English are dive-dove into dive-dived, and forecast-forecast into forecast-forecasted. Jean >> I find this very interesting. Thanks for posting that. CheryW ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: fanir (again) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > A fanir > affects every Sime near him by drawing that Sime's selyn consumption > rate into hte fanir's own selyn production rate. Hmmmm. Tonyo Logan is a First-Order Donor. I can just see the line at the transfer center, with the Tecton channels demanding, "What's going on? There was no hurricane or earthquake or any other reason for so many Simes to have augmented themselves into needing early transfer!" The reply? "Nah, we weren't augmenting. We just went to the Logan/Paget concert!" Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:28:38 -0500 Reply-To: jltraut@xxxxxx.org Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Janet Trautvetter Subject: Re: fanir (again) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 3 Sep 97 at 17:01, Jean Lorrah wrote: > > A fanir > > affects every Sime near him by drawing that Sime's selyn consumption > > rate into hte fanir's own selyn production rate. > > Hmmmm. Tonyo Logan is a First-Order Donor. I can just see the line at the > transfer center, with the Tecton channels demanding, "What's going on? > There was no hurricane or earthquake or any other reason for so many Simes > to have augmented themselves into needing early transfer!" > > The reply? "Nah, we weren't augmenting. We just went to the Logan/Paget > concert!" > Hmmm. Could you see a conservative (and anal-retentive) Controller banning such performances as "disruptive" -- meaning that the aftermath (Simes needing earlier transfer) disrupts his/her precious schedules? (Or at the very least, the Sime Centers anticipating this and preparing their own staff schedules accordingly... the way stores bring in extra people for Christmas season or a holiday sale...) I'm looking forward to hearing more about these two... -Janet jltraut@xxxxxx.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Founding400 New Count -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Dear Folks: Robyn is out of touch so the counter on Tecton Central won't get updated until next month, however, I have stayed up late entering data in the database (the hard part was importing the database from the notebook to the desktop which is running a newer version of the software). We now have 129 of the Founding 400 entered in the database. I think the counter on Tecton Central says 124 but some came in after I estimated that. I had not entered data for one whole month. The rate at which these are coming in is increasing I think -- as is the rate at which people are signing onto the Listserve. I just counted the ones picked up at Worldcon -- we have 14 more of the Founding 400 as yet unentered, plus 7 pb only folks who can't now be counted as part of the 400. So we have 143 of the 400 -- and we're closing on 150. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:57:52 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Elizabeth Sheeks Subject: Names, names....My God. I thought you'd all get a kick out of this. I work in the University Library, in the ILL (interlibrary loan), and I was doing requests when I noticed something interesting. One of the requestor's last name was Farris. I swear, I thought, "Where's the black borders? Aren't Farrises supposed to have black borders?" My second thought was, "Did someone show her any of JL's and Jean Lorrah's novels?" That would have been the end of it, but a few days later guess what name I saw next. Kreg. That's right, there actually is someone out there named Kreg. And someone with the last name of Farris. Wow. Is that a sign or what? Beth ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:57:51 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: NEWS:Bucconeer Party Plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >We are now gearing up for Darkover where we hold the annual Sime~Gen >gathering on the east coast, and Leigh is mulling over ways and means of >launching a well-planned (as opposed to last minute) Room Party at Bucconeer >(next year's Worldcon in Baltimore). > I am now safely back home from Worldcon, and reasonably well unpacked (altho getting caught back up and into the swing of things is going to take me a little longer, and I may have to turn in a paper late because I simply don't have TIME to get it typed into my computer and printed before the class meets), and ready to start getting the preliminary planning done for next year's party. This time I want it to be a really classy thing rather than something we threw together at the last minute. Since I know that not everybody is going to be interested in getting party-related mail, we're going to run this thread of discussion behind the SMOF: topic mask. In order to get it, send a message to listserv@xxxxxx.edu with the single message line: SET TOPICS: +SMOF If this doesn't work properly (or if it causes you to lose everything else), let me know and I'll figure out how to fix it. "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:58:27 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: Names, names....Allah! Comments: To: Elizabeth Sheeks In-Reply-To: <970903225706_-1903733850@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I thought you'd all get a kick out of this. I work in the University > Library, in the ILL (interlibrary loan), and I was doing requests when I > noticed something interesting. One of the requestor's last name was Farris. I Well, hey, the people who live in an apartment on the floor beneath me are also named Farris. I think it's spelled "Faris" though. They are an Iranian family, devout Muslims, the woman wears a headscarf. They have a sweet little boy named Ali, who just had his first day in school. Mother is named Nafisseh, father is Hamid. I bet there aren't too many Sime/Gen "Farrises" who are devout Muslims and are named Nafisseh, Hamid, or Ali. Yours, Hannah M.G.Shapero ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mike Giroux Organization: Icon CMT Corp. Subject: Re: Names, names....Allah! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > > > I thought you'd all get a kick out of this. I work in the University > > Library, in the ILL (interlibrary loan), and I was doing requests when I > > noticed something interesting. One of the requestor's last name was Farris. I > > Well, hey, the people who live in an apartment on the floor beneath me are > also named Farris. I think it's spelled "Faris" though. They are an > Iranian family, devout Muslims, the woman wears a headscarf. They have a > sweet little boy named Ali, who just had his first day in school. > Mother is named Nafisseh, father is Hamid. > > I bet there aren't too many Sime/Gen "Farrises" who are devout Muslims and > are named Nafisseh, Hamid, or Ali. > > Yours, Hannah M.G.Shapero Hmmm, I think we may have found the secret of Sime~Gen names!!! :) My girlfriend is also Iranian, and her nephew is named Keon... :)) -- Mike Giroux mgiroux@xxxxxx.com (work) rmgiroux@xxxxxx.att.net (home) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: That apostrophe again. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kaas wrote: >>It certainly says something about our culture (and perhaps humanity in general) that a person's reputation and intellectual stature can be thrown into question by the presence or absence of one tiny mark less than a millimeter high. (No wonder Farrises are so arrogant, they probably zlin billions of missing and extra apostrophes in everybody they encounter!) << Then half the business world must be Farrises. It can and does, because th= e reader is receiving the signal that the writer doesn't care enough to dou= ble-check their work before sending it out be it actually on paper or e-mai= l. On a list like this it may not be quite so critical, yet, but one certa= inly hopes care is taken when corresponding with a business or company. Mo= re job opportunities have been lost through poor impressions presented on p= aper than poor impressions presented physically. For example, I correspond via e-mail with my best friend at another company= . Lately she hasn't been very careful about her spelling and often ends up= with completely different words than I know she intended. I've found this= very jarring, especially since I know she is very careful of the proper wo= rd usage in conversation or on paper. Kandy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Names, names....Allah! In a message dated 97-09-04 09:55:09 EDT, hmgs@xxxxxx.DIGEX.NET (Hannah M.G. Shapero) writes: << Well, hey, the people who live in an apartment on the floor beneath me are also named Farris. I think it's spelled "Faris" though. They are an Iranian family, devout Muslims >> Before I found this list, the only Farrises I had ever known of in real life were middle eastern too. This has persistently affected how I "see" Farrises even though I have now read the official description. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:35:42 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Halper Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jean wrote-- > Currently in process of changing in English are > dive-dove into dive-dived, and forecast-forecast into forecast-forecasted. > Jean Interestingly enough, in my industry, radio, it went the other way. In the 1920s, there was a big debate about the use of "broadcast" as a verb. Newspapers used the past tense of "broadcasted" for ages, but gradually, the -ed was dropped and it became acceptable to use the same form in the present as in the past... (and then there are the verbs like 'to fly'-- but in baseball, nobody says 'the player flew out' when a fly ball is hit for an out. they say the player 'flied out'. Isn't language fun-- wonder what the Simes would have made of all of this... how did the ancients explain it for posterity??? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: advice? Neilson Media Research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > At 02:34 AM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I'm in radio, so I know a few things about them. Consider yourself lucky-- > >they only select 4,000 homes. From those 4,000 they determine what the > >entire country will watch... Are they going to install a "People Meter" in > >your house? How are they using the internet, if I may ask? If this is truly > >off-topic (as it seems it might be), e-mail me privately. Thanks very much for the information; I wanted to check if this was legit or not... > > It's not off-topic. If they attach a meter, be sure to visit the S~G > websites daily. If you keep a diary, put them in. Download some fiction > every few days. Just having the sites _appear_ somewhere in a report on > Neilson starting to rate the WWW will bring us thousands of new visitors. Jean > I am not exactly sure what's going on. The lady who talked to me said something about sending software through the mail for me to use (?) and a floppy to send back to them with the data on it. If this actually goes through (they thought they were calling someone else), I'll visit the sites (I do that anyway), but it _won't_ be daily. I am starting med school soon, so I probably won't even check my email all that often! Do you know the name of some good virus detection/protection programs? I just have the generic one that came with my computer. Thank you JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:13:58 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: advice? Neilson Media Research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Sheeks wrote: > > The quote you're talking about appears in Zelerod's Doom, Chapter 19--Winter > Siege, p.239. Specifically, it says: > > "Over the next few days the temperature plummeted. Stragglers came in > aided by gypsies, who seemed to have spread through the mountains in a > massive rescue operation. But most amazingly, the small groups who survived > to rejoin the army were both junct and Gen, working together for survival, > becoming a real team. At least one pair returned with the Sime high-field, > the Gen low, their nagers defying anyone to make something of it. > Of the ones who didn't return, no one spoke save in the collective > memorial service." Thanks -- I don't know what I did with my book! > Hope this helps! And yes--I want to see a story about the above-mentioned > Sime/Gen--what happened there? I've been wondering about the pair for years, > even since I got ZD. I even came up with names and background on them! Have you written a story on them? Would you mind letting me read what you wrote on them? Also, it doesn't have to be just _one_ pair... > > Beth JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:12:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Very late posts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi! Did everyone else receive two posts from JoAnn Lee today, sent just after 9pm on August 22? If they were stuck at the SIU server, I don't have to do anything about it. However, I also received in the download I just did a post to _another_ mailing list, dated August 25. Most of the posts are dated today, but why am I receiving some more than a week late? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Organization: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig Subject: Re: Very late posts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > Hi! > Did everyone else receive two posts from JoAnn Lee today, sent just > after 9pm on August 22? If they were stuck at the SIU server, I don't have > to do anything about it. However, I also received in the download I just > did a post to _another_ mailing list, dated August 25. Most of the posts > are dated today, but why am I receiving some more than a week late? Jean > No Jean, I received them the same way--dated August 22. Talk about deferment... Follow Your Bliss!! Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:59:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: HC CHANNEL'S DESTINY -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Looking for copies of Kraith Collected for someone who emailed me, I stumbled across two copies of HC Channel's Destiny that were in the Darkover Table Stock box. They are (including postage) $14.50 apiece if anyone wants them. I still haven't got the Endorsed Books order form ready to post. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Founding400 -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: I've now entered all the forms for the Founding 400 and am (for the first time in weeks) all caught up. I was right - we now have 143 of the requisite 400. My database was started on October 20, 1996, so it's not a year yet and we're .35 (a little more than a third!) of the way there. But I don't think this will take three years. It seems (subjectively) that the rate at which these are coming in has increased. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:07:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Dangerous new virus Comments: To: bseidl@xxxxxx.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received this from the Cornish listserve I'm on, I thought I'd pass it al= ong. Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:16:39 -0700 >From: "Ruth Delvige" To: Message-Id: <199709040045.AAA53626@xxxxxx.net> Subject: Fw: IMPORTANT !!!! -Forwarded Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Naetha Conner > To: TKW Computers ; Sherry Phipps ; Barbara McLane ; Bob Martin ; Cliff Lenderman ; Jon Maness ; Cyberpeddler John Hobbs ; Mom Home ; Isabell Hardy ; Fenley & Bate ; Joan Everett ; Don ; Buddy Dixon ; Ruth Delvige ; Steph Curry ; Gary Campbell ; Courtney Elizabeth Campbell ; Vicki Berham ; Rex Berham ; Wendy Bartley ; Tom @ work Baker ; Shannon& Tom Baker > Subject: Fw: IMPORTANT !!!! -Forwarded > Date: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 5:03 PM >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > FYI > > > >=20 > > > > Subject: IMPORTANT !!!! > > > >=20 > > > > WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE CREW" DO NOT > > > > open it! > > > > It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out to > as > > > > many people you can.......this is a new virus and not many people > know > > > > about it! > > > >=20 > > > > This information was received this morning from IBM, please share it > > > > with anyone that might access the Internet. > > > >=20 > > > > Also, > > > > If anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete > > > > it WITHOUT reading it!! This is a warning for all Internet users - > > > > there is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through an > > > > e-mail message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!". > > > >=20 > > > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!! > > > > This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you are > > > > interested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is > > > > too > > > > late. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the boot > > > > sector > > > > of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present. It is a > > > > self-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it will > > > > AUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is > present > > in > > > > YOUR mailbox! > > > > This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holds the potential to > > > > DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your in box, and > > > > who's > > > > mail is in their in box and so on. If this virus keeps getting > > > > passed, > > > > it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE to computer > networks > > > >=20 > > > > worldwide!!!! > > > > Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as > you > > > > see it! And pass this message along to all of your friends, > relatives > > > > and the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists which you > > > > are > > > > on so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!! > > > >=20 > > > > Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped. > > > > PASS THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!! > > > > There is a new virus going arround in the last couple of days!!! > > > > DO NOT open or even look at any mail that you get that says: > "Returned > > > >=20 > > > > or Unable to Deliver" This virus will attach itself to your computer > > > > components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items > > > > that says this. AOL has said this is a very danderous virus, and > there > > > >=20 > > > > is NO remedy for it at this time, Please Be Careful, And forward to > > > > all your on-line friends A.S.A.P. > > > >=20 > > > > Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!! Kandace Klumper Father Flanagan's Boys' Home klumperk@xxxxxx.boystown.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:10:25 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Major appology! Comments: To: Barbara Seidl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, sorry, sorry! I got sucked in by the virus hoax. Please disregard = my Dangerous Virus Post! Again, I am thoroughly embarassed and I applogize. Kandace Klumper Father Flanagan's Boys' Home klumperk@xxxxxx.boystown.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Names, names....My God. -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Elizabeth Sheeks wrote: > One of the requestor's last name was Farris. I swear, I > thought, "Where's the black borders? Aren't Farrises supposed to have black > borders?" My second thought was, "Did someone show her any of JL's and Jean > Lorrah's novels?" That would have been the end of it, but a few days later > guess what name I saw next. Kreg. That's right, there actually is someone out > there named Kreg. And someone with the last name of Farris. Wow. Is that a sign > or what? I wonder if you all realize that MOST of the names authors use are cribbed from the phone book - overheard stuff while standing in line, etc. I work as an Election Inspector (and so will be offline next Tuesday working the local Primary) and deal with a huge collection of NAMES. I also steal names from TV Guide - both the people who work ON the mag and the actors and characters in series I don't watch. When doing SF you have to change the names you steal though, and for S~G that's easy because you just let them glide into future elided pronunciations. None of that is arbitrary -- workshoppers remember, name choosing isn't something a writer can afford to do at random. There are artistic and dramatic and commercial reasons as well as linguistic and esoteric ones for your name choices. Literary allusions come last on the list of considerations - and mostly in the form of "don't make him sound like a symbol for something unless he is". There's a whole esoteric study -- an entire branch of magick -- that deals with correct names of things and that's always been fascinating to me. I wrote a long sequence of columns on this and there's even more to be said about it (identity that is -- where it comes from and how you symbolize and express it). Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:12:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: metatype -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- PM Newcome wrote: > Usage: > "Mom I've fallen in love!" > > "Uh-unh..... what gender, boy or girl?" > > "Mom!" > > "What moiety?" > > "Mom...." > > "Is he/she a doctor or a channel?" > > <> > > > Of course, moiety's an unusual word for vernacular use.... I bet there'd be > more than one term, once each side decided the other counted as human... Just > as we use "sex" for gender ..... "type", "caste", "persuasion" come to > mind.... Actually, I like the word moiety and have since I learned it way back in grammar school (reading sf enlarges the vocabulary -- it was a favorite of several writers in those days, I'm not sure if Heinlein and/or Poul Andersen ) -- but I don't think it applies exactly to the Sime~Gen dichotomy. Technically it can refer to any proportionate subdivision of a society, but usually it refers to things about which individuals or society have some choice. I mean you can be born into a caste that you didn't decide to join, but the society decided that children of your parents HAD to be that caste. There's an element of decision there. There is only biology determining Sime-ness or Gen-ness. However, during the centuries when people thought the fate of a child at puberty depended on morality, they might have used such a word. That word would not be used in polite company after Unity. Moiety is based on the latin word for HALF (medius). Maybe some linguist around here can do something with a derivation from that? But of course HALF is altogether the wrong concept to base a description of Sime-ness or Gen-ness on because humanity isn't HALVED by this. The numerical balance is decidedly on the Gen side, all other things being equal . Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Very late posts On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:12:49 -0500 Jean Lorrah writes: >Hi! > Did everyone else receive two posts from JoAnn Lee today, sent >just >after 9pm on August 22? If they were stuck at the SIU server, I don't >have >to do anything about it. However, I also received in the download I >just >did a post to _another_ mailing list, dated August 25. Most of the >posts >are dated today, but why am I receiving some more than a week late? >Jean > >Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ >"I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of >treaty you >make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant > Yes, I got them today also. I didn't pay any attention to the dates until you asked the question. I looked at the headers and found all the transmittal dates are 4 Sep. Strange. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:43:51 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: metatype In-Reply-To: <199709042011.QAA04602@xxxxxx.com> from "Jacqueline Lichtenberg" at Sep 4, 97 04:12:12 pm Content-Type: text JL wrote: > > Of course, moiety's an unusual word for vernacular use.... I bet there'd be > > more than one term, once each side decided the other counted as human... > > Just as we use "sex" for gender ..... "type", "caste", "persuasion" come > > to mind.... > > Actually, I like the word moiety and have since I learned it way back in > grammar school (reading sf enlarges the vocabulary -- it was a favorite of > several writers in those days, I'm not sure if Heinlein and/or Poul Andersen > ) -- but I don't think it applies exactly to the Sime~Gen dichotomy. Not to mention the real problem: it's three syllables, and anything that's _commonly_ used tends to get elided or abbreviated down to as few syllables as possible. :) > Moiety is based on the latin word for HALF (medius). Maybe some linguist > around here can do something with a derivation from that? "Med"? "Met"? "Moy" if we're going to use moiety? There's probably going to be a couple of common terms, as well as a post- Unity technical term when people start studying biology, and one or two semi-formal terms as well. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:24:19 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Virus Hoax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here we go again. A virus cannot be transmitted in an e-mail message. A virus CAN be transmitted in an attachment. The PENPAL GREETINGS virus warning is an old, old, old hoax that has been going around the Internet for years. The latest addition to this silliness, the "Returned--Unable to Deliver" hoax, is a new one to me, but of course it, too, is utter nonsense. To delete without reading such a message is to not find out why it was undeliverable (you probably typoed the e-dress) and therefore not send your message. We all receive such messages because of typos, someone's server being temporarily down, or someone's mailbox being full. These messages are NOT viruses, as viruses cannot be transmitted in text files. E-mail messages are text files. On the other hand, should you receive an attachment with your e-mail, if the message is not from someone you trust and does not satisfactorily explain what the attachment is, do NOT open the file. Delete it. A nasty file that is not even a virus (no anti-virus program can detect it) is a batch file that, if clicked on, reformats your hard drive. Once it starts, you are sunk. This one comes as a "gift" attachment and is identified as PKZIP3. There IS no PKZIP3. If you want the extremely useful PKZIP program, go to the PKZIP website and download the real thing. Finally, look at this nonsensical advice in the message: > > > > DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!! How many of you are on such an ancient system that you do not automatically download all your messages when you connect? Because I still have the old software on my old computer, right now I can still access my university account that way. But the university is phasing it out, and it will be gone at the end of the year. And of course downloading everything to Eudora is much more convenient, so that is what I do, just as you do. The only time I used the old system recently was when my computer was in the shop, and I used the old system on the old computer for a week. The point is, 90% of e-mail users today can only look at their messages AFTER they download them, so a message telling them not to download certain messages is ridiculous, and merely shows how long this chestnut of a hoax has been around. Once again: a virus cannot be transmitted as an e-mail message. It CAN be transmitted in an attachment. If you receive ANY attachment from someone you do not know and trust, delete it without opening it. But for goodness' sake, don't let these hoaxers make you afraid to read your mail! Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:58:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: The more technical aspects of transfer JennV writes: << Alright. I've first-drafted almost every part of my part of the RPG, and I'm up to the *exceptions* in transfer, and the more technical aspects - like exact definitions for selur, selyur, selur nager and selyur nager, and what exactly -is- a fanir. Does anyone have anything which I can read which will clarify this? I have an explanation of standard transfer which I am happy with, and I suspect that I've actually -described- selur, selyur, etc.. just in my best bastardised english-simelan blend. >> This is terrific! I *love* this "technical stuff." Is that still just coursing the net through e-mail (or typewriter, or word processor, or whatever!), or is it on the Web already? Where can I go to find these descriptions and definitions you've come up with? How long til the role-playing game is up and running? (Sorry -- I haven't been able to keep up with my ListServe e-mail as much as I like, so forgive me if I just haven't gotten to the messages where you've already answered these questions.) Suzanne P.S. Oops -- just backtracked far enough back to read the e-mail about the RPG -- scratch those questions! Would still like to see the Technical Definitions and such, though! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:59:05 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: metatype PMN writes: << "Race" is perhaps too loaded a term for us writers to use, but it also fits.... fully members of the same species, etc....>> I'm with you on this one: I think "Race" is the perfect word to describe the Sime and Gen mutations -- and it might actually be Interesting to try and figure out how the connotation might have evolved, or in what ways it has stayed the same -- since "ancient" times! <> What a great concept! Of course it makes Sense that as society became more integrated, idioms describing the ways of differentiating the races would crop up -- the biggest, of course, being between having or not having Tentacles. That's a more obvious one: I'd think that slang terminology differentiating renSimes from Channels and Gens from Donors would also crop up in certain circles. Plus all the, er, negative (expletive? vulgar!) references to same. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:06:30 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: The more technical aspects of transfer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne George wrote: > > JennV writes: > > << Alright. I've first-drafted almost every part of my part of the RPG, and > I'm > up to the *exceptions* in transfer, and the more technical aspects - like > exact definitions for selur, selyur, selur nager and selyur nager, and what > exactly -is- a fanir. > This is terrific! I *love* this "technical stuff." Is that still just > coursing the net through e-mail (or typewriter, or word processor, or > whatever!), or is it on the Web already? Where can I go to find these > descriptions and definitions you've come up with? How long til the > role-playing game is up and running? Ok. A reminder: because of copyrights, marketing, etc etc etc, none of the stuff we're doing can be 'published' (IE: posted to an open list, stored in an available list digest, or posted to the web) until or unless we get an agreement from the people who will be publishing the print version that allows it. And I think we can all see the chances of that. (Buckley's and none) I'm *REALLY* sorry to be tantalising with the questions and then unable to post the answers where everyone can get them. :( But as soon as we -are- finished and the stuff is out there.. well, you can all lend each other your copies.. :) I'm doing my best to collect what information is collectable and to explain it .. I think we'll have a good product. And if it -is- turned down, -then- I'll put it up on the web if it won't scotch other plans and other people's chances at things. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:10:41 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Organization: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig Subject: FW: JOKES: World's last literate person dies (wait a few years and thiswon't be a joke...:) Comments: To: Crystal & Robert , Internest List , Mattress List , Sherri Jaramillo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- From: Rich Purvis[SMTP:rpurvis@xxxxxx.ca] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 1997 4:02 PM To: funny@xxxxxx.ca Subject: JOKES: World's last literate person dies (wait a few years and thiswon't be a joke...:) > ROUEN, FRANCE--Béatrice Berceau, the planet's last >literate person, died Monday, marking the end of an era. > > Berceau, widely renowned in her native France and around >the world for her remarkable ability to decipher coded >inscriptions of symbols printed on paper, was 98 years old. > > "Béatrice's death has officially ushered in the Post-Literate >Age," said Roland Habusch, head of Harvard University's >Department of Sound Bites and Pictograms. "No longer will we >as a species have access to the information stored in the bound >paper volumes known to Béatrice and our ancestors as 'books.'" > > Those who knew Berceau claimed that the elderly eccentric >did not own a television, could not operate an ordinary >fax-modem and neither left nor received a single voice-mail >message in her entire life. > > Berceau, authorities said, died late Monday after being >struck by a car at an intersection near her Rouen home. Police >attributed the accident to her inability to interpret the glowing >red hand pictograph at the intersection's crosswalk, which >replaced the "written" message of "Don't Walk" on most >crosswalks in the early '80s. > > "She just wasn't cut out for the modern era," said Berceau's >granddaughter, Los Angeles-area video-game design consultant >Lisa Hamilton. "But she was a wonderful woman. She always >kept in touch, even though we were so far away, and she even >sent us a card every week. I never had any idea what all those >shapes drawn on them were supposed to mean, but the fronts of >the cards always had such pretty pictures of France." > > Described by friends and neighbors as a kind, quiet woman who often sat staring at indecipherable rows of symbols for hours at a >time, Berceau dedicated her last few years to the preservation of so-called "classic" works, translating them into modern, non-written >formats for future generations to enjoy. > > MTV vice-president of project development Hal Mirsch, who worked closely with Berceau in her final days, said: "We are saddened >by the death of this venerable, longtime 'reader,' even if we're still not quite clear what that word means. We are especially grateful for her >pivotal translation work on our newest animated series, Albert Camus' The Stranger. The tale of a mysterious costumed hero outsider >who travels from town to town battling the Xenophons with his turntable-based DJ powers, The Stranger will rock your way this fall." > > "Without Béatrice's help," Mirsch said, "we never would have been aware of this 'Stranger' character and its tremendous potential as >a licensed property, and we never would have been able to bring Mr. Camus' vision to the small screen." > > Following Berceau's death, the New York publishing industry announced the closing of its last print-based publisher, The Béatrice >Berceau Press, which for over 40 years specialized in books that Béatrice Berceau might enjoy. > > Also hurt by Berceau's death is the Béatrice Berceau Book-Of-The-Month Club, a division of Time-Warner. > > "Sadly, we no longer have a market for all the 'books' for which we have reprint rights," said Henry McGrew, president of the >mail-order club which, prior to Berceau's husband's death in 1991, was known as the François And Béatrice Berceau >Book-Of-The-Month Club. McGrew noted that the club's sales plummeted to an all-time low of two books last year, due largely to >Berceau's increasingly poor eyesight. > > With Berceau's passing, the world's many repositories of symbol-inscribed paper volumes, known as "libraries," have been >temporarily closed. Authorities have already begun the arduous task of converting the libraries' printed materials--once considered >precious storehouses of human knowledge and culture--back into valuable wood pulp. The libraries are expected to complete the >transition to all-audio-visual format and reopen by spring 1998. > > Persons wishing to express sympathies to the Berceau family are encouraged to send flowers, song-o-grams, videotapes, and >CD-ROM and voice-mail messages in care of this newspaper, or e-mail them to www.B-Br-sO.com. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe to jokes, send mail to majordomo@xxxxxx.on.ca with the test "unsubscribe jokes" in the message body. Check ftp://ftp.datasoft.on.ca/pub/lists for archives of this list. ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:13:19 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: metatype I still vote for "polarity"... mostly because of the very clear analogy that can be drawn between electromagnetism/electricity and the non-magical aspects of selyn fields and selyn movement. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:51:34 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: character names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacqueline writes, >There's a whole esoteric study -- an entire branch of magick -- that deals >with correct names of things and that's always been fascinating to me. I >wrote a long sequence of columns on this and there's even more to be said >about it (identity that is -- where it comes from and how you symbolize and >express it). Some people arrive with their names in place. Abel Veritt and Risa Tigue did so--I didn't name them. They introduced themselves by those names. Kreg is, of course, an elided pronunciation of Craig, a name I simply like. In America, there is a common practice of spelling names the way people really say them--hence the real Kreg someone found. Then there are names like Owen--it's a real but uncommon name, Welsh in origin. Jacqueline named him after we decided to respond to the fan question of whether a one-armed Gen could be a Companion through show-don't tell: it sounds like "one" to her. Once we had one Welsh name, I sprinkled a few more among the folks of Fort Freedom. So it's best not to go looking for literary allusions in character names--there are almost always other reasons for them. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:58:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Something funny to brighten your day. Thanks, Ann -- these were cute! :-D Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: happy News! In-Reply-To: <970903101408_637742878@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Um hello! My synth did not interpret the message that you wrote, ann! Was it supposed to be a picture or something? Hugs! Oops I forgot to include the message in my post so I'll have to send another one. Hugs! Lisa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lisa W Subject: Re: happy News! In-Reply-To: <970903101408_637742878@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE This is the one I'm confused about. On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, Anne Pinzow wrote: > !!!!!!! > (=F4 =F4) > +-----oOO----(_)----------------+ > | Got a message from | > | Anne for ya! | > +------------------------oOO----+ > |__| |__| > || || > ooO Ooo >=20 >=20 >=20 > ////////////////////////////////////////////////////= //// >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 97-08-26 23:25:35 EDT, you write: >=20 >=20 > Hi all! > My sister had her baby son tonight at around 6. I cvan't remember all t= he > details but mom and baby are healthy. His name is Daniel Alexander Cohe= n. > Oh I am a happy auntie! Thank god I'm well enough to enjoy this day! >=20 > Hugs all around! > Lisa >=20 > Congratulations and my best to mother, child and all of you. Being an > auntie is the very best. Hope you have as much fun at it as I do. >=20 > Talk to you later! >=20 > Anne >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:22:57 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: metatype Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >PMN writes: > ><< "Race" is perhaps too loaded a term for us writers to use, but it also > fits.... fully members of the same species, etc....>> > >I'm with you on this one: I think "Race" is the perfect word to describe the > Sime and Gen mutations -- and it might actually be Interesting to try and >figure out how the connotation might have evolved, or in what ways it has >stayed the same -- since "ancient" times! "Race" is a totally inappropriate term to describe the S/G split, because the children of two members of the same race will ALWAYS have a child of the same race. The children of two Simes have a 1/3 chance of being Gen, and vice versa. For the same reason, "subspecies", "breed", and any other biologial term describing a degree of genetic distance IS NOT APPROPRIATE to describe the S/G split. Folks, how about coining a new word for the S/G dichotomy, instead of proposing the same old group of terms which already mean something completely different? Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:24:34 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: delay in con report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd promised to get a con report out today, but I've had some other things come up and it's going to be a little late (so much happens at a Worldcon that it's going to be a *long* con report). I hope I can get it done by tomorrow. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:35:47 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: metatype In-Reply-To: <970904211212_18951460@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I still vote for "polarity"... mostly because of the very clear analogy that > can be drawn between electromagnetism/electricity and the non-magical aspects > of selyn fields and selyn movement. I still vote for "morph," which is more "popular," less "scientific," sort of morally neutral, and also only one syllable. Like, "what morph is he?" And on those forms which most literate people in the Sime/Gen world will probably still have to fill out, there would be the boxes for Household (if any), Gender (M/F/other), and Morph (Sime/Gen). HMGS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:42:22 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: Re: Names, names....My God. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- [ snip ] >I wonder if you all realize that MOST of the names authors use are cribbed >from the phone book - overheard stuff while standing in line, etc. I work >as an Election Inspector (and so will be offline next Tuesday working the >local Primary) and deal with a huge collection of NAMES. [ snip ] There is a Hanrahan Pass mentioned in _House of Zeor_. Just after I read HoZ the first time I met a young woman in my high school named Hanrahan. -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:42:22 -0700 Reply-To: Sylvia Engdahl Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sylvia Engdahl Subject: Re: Very late posts In-Reply-To: <199709050502.AAA103306@xxxxxx.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Did everyone else receive two posts from JoAnn Lee today, sent just > after 9pm on August 22? If they were stuck at the SIU server, I don't have > to do anything about it. However, I also received in the download I just > did a post to _another_ mailing list, dated August 25. Most of the posts > are dated today, but why am I receiving some more than a week late? Jean > I get the Digest version of the list, and they are in today's digest, which would seem to indicate that they weren't received at SUI until today. Some of my other e-mail has been late this week, though not that late. Perhaps some of the Net's routes are getting overloaded. ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Engdahl - Eugene, Oregon Visit my Website! sengdahl@xxxxxx.com http://www.teleport.com/~sengdahl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 02:47:41 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Warren McGaw Subject: Re: HC CHANNEL'S DESTINY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Jacqueline - I would love one of those Channel's Destiny's!!!! Just tell me who to beat off with the virtual stick!!!!! please, please, please, please, please. [ I would read this message at 6 pm Friday night! I'll see about getting the paperwork on monday!!!!! ] BTW I had my first real boiled dough bagel yesterday - I'm thinking of setting up house in the shop. Very nice! Hoping you and yours are well Allison McGaw novalar@xxxxxx.com.au At 02:59 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > >Folks: > >Looking for copies of Kraith Collected for someone who emailed me, I >stumbled across two copies of HC Channel's Destiny that were in the Darkover >Table Stock box. > >They are (including postage) $14.50 apiece if anyone wants them. I still >haven't got the Endorsed Books order form ready to post. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:35:40 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-04 21:44:06 EDT, you write, in reference to "moiety": << But of course HALF is altogether the wrong concept to base a description of Sime-ness or Gen-ness on because humanity isn't HALVED by this. The numerical balance is decidedly on the Gen side, all other things being equal . >> On the other hand, each member, Sime or Gen, is *half* of a wonderful thing: a transfer pair .... a complete selyn production/consumption unit .... yin/yang ... rejoined souls etc..... : ) PMN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:36:12 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-04 21:50:01 EDT, you write: << I still vote for "polarity".. >> Shortens nicely to "pole", also ..... but won't users of the term be drawn to call one "plus" or "positive" and the other "minus" or "negative" ? And won't the side picking (In Territory vs Out) choose a different one to be the negative? Confusing..... PMN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:53:26 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PM Newcomb wrote: > > In a message dated 97-09-04 21:50:01 EDT, you write: > > << I still vote for "polarity".. >> > > Shortens nicely to "pole", also ..... but won't users of the term be drawn to > call one "plus" or "positive" and the other "minus" or "negative" ? Also, 'pole' is an existing word. However, JL said something in the names thread about authors taking existing names and .. sort of 'shortening' them. I don't know how you guys say 'polarity', but the Australian accent puts the emphasis on the middle syllable. Let's try the word 'lar'. It sounds Simelannish to me, it comes from one of our favourite words, and it isn't an existing word with an existing meaning. So.. which lar are you? Jenn (Gen?) V. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:18:02 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Names, names....My God. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Captain Button: > > There is a Hanrahan Pass mentioned in _House of Zeor_. > > Just after I read HoZ the first time I met a young woman in > my high school named Hanrahan. OH Dear.. Hanrahan Pass.. There's an Australian poem (by Henry Lawson? Banjo Patterson?) the name of which I do not remember, but its first line is "We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan .. and Hanrahan goes on predicting ruin (or roon) through drought, flood, fire and harvest. Very nice dry humour... and Hanrahan Pass reminded me of it. Maybe I should grab the poem and do up a Sime~Gen version. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:56:59 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:35 PM 9/4/97 -0400, Donna wrote: > >Interestingly enough, in my industry, radio, it went the other way. In the >1920s, there was a big debate about the use of "broadcast" as a verb. >Newspapers used the past tense of "broadcasted" for ages, but gradually, the >-ed was dropped and it became acceptable to use the same form in the present >as in the past... (and then there are the verbs like 'to fly'-- but in >baseball, nobody says 'the player flew out' when a fly ball is hit for an >out. they say the player 'flied out'. Isn't language fun-- wonder what the >Simes would have made of all of this... how did the ancients explain it for >posterity??? What you report is very common, especially among literate people. To anyone knowing the history of English, "broadcasted" would be preferred because new verbs added to any Germanic language in historic times are weak. To ordinary people, "broadcasted" obviously seemed right, because it was--they didn't have to have a reason. But at some point the *grammarians* came on the scene. Often just one strong Voice of Authority can do the trick. In the 1920's, every dictionary would have had "broadcast" as the past tense of "broadcast," or possibly only "cast" as the past tense of "cast" (note that "casted" does not yet appear even today without a prefix). The "experts" are always prescriptive grammarians, usually with no knowledge of the history of language except that they believe English would be "better" if we all went back to what _they_ think the language was like in Shakespeare's time (ignoring such gems as "That was the most unkindest cut of all"). They mistakenly believe that English is derived from Latin, and often try to apply Romance rules to a Germanic language. But their big bugaboo is change--they want to paralyze the language so that it can never grow and change. As for "flied out," that is another example of the same thing. All baseball terms were added to English millennia after the shift from strong to weak verbs in Germanic languages. "To fly out" is not the same thing as "to fly," even though the two verbs are clearly related. The new verb is weak. We have other pairs like this in English: shine-shone when we mean the subject glows, and shine-shined when we mean the subject polished, for example. In "John flew out the window," John levitates. In "John flied out in the fourth inning," John hits a ball, which does the flying, just as what John polishes in "John shined his shoes" is what does the glowing. Yup, there are actual patterns to all this stuff! I teach a whole course devoted to it. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:20:51 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >As for "flied out," that is another example of the same thing. All baseball >terms were added to English millennia after the shift from strong to weak >verbs in Germanic languages. This pattern is also true of new words derived from irregularly declined nouns. For instance, we have "man/men," but the brand name Walkman forms its plural with an "s." ie "I have two Walkmans and both of them are broken." I think the reason so many people feel frustrated about grammar is that the proliferation of rules, exceptions to rules and exceptions to the exceptions, combined with the social pressure to be "correct" or be thought a fool, leads to the feeling that a lot of the rules are there simply to trip people up. Grammar becomes not a guide to improve communication, but a stumblingblock to make struggling people fall so that they can be dismissed from "worthy" society. I know I often feel that certain niggling rules that I perceive as arbitrary, I also perceive as being there so that people can say "Gotcha!" "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:39:36 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In a message dated 97-09-05 10:07:06 EDT, kimmel@xxxxxx.EDU writes: << I think the reason so many people feel frustrated about grammar is that the proliferation of rules, exceptions to rules and exceptions to the exceptions, combined with the social pressure to be "correct" or be thought a fool >> I suspect there are at least some people out there who don't know any of the rules at all. Except for isolated cases (such as the rule about "it's" my mother told me) I know almost no grammar. I can say with a fair amount of confidence that I haven't been taught grammar since about the 4th or 5th grade, and that was only simple word identification (noun, verb, adjective) and basic sentence structure. I have been reading since well before kindergarten, though; my entire vocabulary and feel for how English is put together was absorbed through reading. As a kid, when I didn't know how to put something, I would open two or three books and see how those authors did it. While I normally wouldn't care about "social pressure to be correct", since joining the S/G list I have begun to feel very strongly like a person who has faked her way through life without being able to read, and is now regularly getting caught holding the book upside down. I know I won't dare show around another rough draft without getting it checked out by a professional first. I received one grammatical/stylistic critique of "The Mystery" that was only 3 pages shorter than the story itself! Personal incompetence certainly isn't a pleasant sensation, especially when revealed after many years of supposed adequacy. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:55:38 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Names, names....My God. 09-05-97 10:44 AM I don't use the phone book, in fact that's probably the one book I don't use. My computer is set up such that I am facing several bookshelves filled with my reference books, program and computer manuals, etc. I genrally take the names of the authors of the books or the book titles. Once I wrote something where the names of a married couple were Buzz and Ines, from my Business Dictionary. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: metatype and antiselyn In a message dated 97-09-05 04:36:35 EDT, PMNewcomb@xxxxxx.COM writes: << << I still vote for "polarity".. >> Shortens nicely to "pole", also ..... but won't users of the term be drawn to call one "plus" or "positive" and the other "minus" or "negative" ? And won't the side picking (In Territory vs Out) choose a different one to be the negative? Confusing.....>> Most words have many possible meanings/connotations... if we want a word that doesn't, we'd have to make one up, because the concepts we are trying to describe don't exist in our culture so there couldn't possibly already be a 100% accurate uniquely dedicated word. BTW that particular word-confusion already exists with electricity. Most people don't actually have a clue what really happens in electric theory, although of course this doesn't stop them from making use of the electricity. (hey you have two wires... they both have to be connected, sometimes it matters what order they're connected in. big deal) Interestingly there is a complete and utter difference between the way engineers (university educated) and technicians (trade school educated) think about electricity. Technicians are taught negative electrons flow towards the positive end of the circuit while Engineers are taught that positive "holes" (left over places where electrons used to be) flow toward the negative end of the circuit. This is because electrical engineering was a discipline long before they figured out how electricity really works. At my trade school they taught us how to think both ways, and I wouldn't be surprised if many engineers do also. It's as if there were two completely different circuits existed in the same time-space, one facing in one direction and its shadow-partner (the one with flowing "holes") superimposed over it. Think of a theater marquee with lights racing in one direction, dark bulbs racing in the other. I have often thought of transfer in that way - the selyn racing into the Sime, the "emptiness" racing into the Gen. And looking at those Gens with a "need to give" sensation it almost suggests an entirely theoretical shadow-selyn or anti-selyn that is the equivalent of electron "holes"... food for thought. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:25:55 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In-Reply-To: <970905103836_1395278840@xxxxxx.com> from "Kaas Baichtal" at Sep 5, 97 10:39:36 am Content-Type: text Kaas wrote: > I suspect there are at least some people out there who don't know any of the > rules at all. Except for isolated cases (such as the rule about "it's" my > mother told me) I know almost no grammar. I can say with a fair amount of > confidence that I haven't been taught grammar since about the 4th or 5th > grade, and that was only simple word identification (noun, verb, adjective) > and basic sentence structure. I have been reading since well before > kindergarten, though; my entire vocabulary and feel for how English is put > together was absorbed through reading. As a kid, when I didn't know how to > put something, I would open two or three books and see how those authors did > it. The result is, by and large, that you _do_ know the rules of grammar; you just don't _consciously_ know them. You picked them up between the ages of 1 and 5, and then strengthened them and refined them by extensive reading. The previous passage, for instance, shows that you know where nouns, verbs, and adjectives go; in what order they should be in a sentence; mastery of tense; proper use of conjunctions; and quite a few more that I don't have the vocabulary to name but Jean probably does... > While I normally wouldn't care about "social pressure to be correct", since > joining the S/G list I have begun to feel very strongly like a person who has > faked her way through life without being able to read, and is now regularly > getting caught holding the book upside down. I know I won't dare show around > another rough draft without getting it checked out by a professional first. I > received one grammatical/stylistic critique of "The Mystery" that was only 3 > pages shorter than the story itself! Personal incompetence certainly isn't a > pleasant sensation, especially when revealed after many years of supposed > adequacy. You already know the basics, and that's the hard part... Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:31:16 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kaas Baichtal wrote: > I suspect there are at least some people out there who don't know any of the > rules at all. Except for isolated cases (such as the rule about "it's" my > mother told me) I know almost no grammar. > While I normally wouldn't care about "social pressure to be correct", since > joining the S/G list I have begun to feel very strongly like a person who has > faked her way through life without being able to read, and is now regularly > getting caught holding the book upside down. > Personal incompetence certainly isn't a > pleasant sensation, especially when revealed after many years of supposed > adequacy. > > --Kaas There's an easy fix. You can get the basics of grammar from .. da da da dumm ... the infamous 'Strunk and Wagnell'. It's even available on the net, is reasonably small, and is actually readable. The rules of grammar aren't hard, it's easier to write well when you know what you're doing, and you stop feeling like you're reading the book upside down. So yeah, I'm recommending improving your knowledge once you realise that you don't know. Nerd? Me? YEAH! Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:46:57 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In-Reply-To: <341025C4.5813644D@xxxxxx..au> from "Jenn Vesperman" at Sep 6, 97 01:31:16 am Content-Type: text One thing to remember, though: There's a difference between the rules of grammar and the rules of style. "The book was read by Jean" and "Jean read the book" are both grammatical sentences; in most contexts, though, the second is preferable stylistically. Most legalese, for instance, is quite grammatical (it has to be, in order to be precise), but it's usually possible to state the same information much more clearly. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:57:53 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Organization: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Zbaraschuk wrote: > > Kaas wrote: > > I suspect there are at least some people out there who don't know any of the > > rules at all. Except for isolated cases (such as the rule about "it's" my > > mother told me) I know almost no grammar. I can say with a fair amount of > > confidence that I haven't been taught grammar since about the 4th or 5th > > grade, and that was only simple word identification (noun, verb, adjective) > > and basic sentence structure. I have been reading since well before > > kindergarten, though; my entire vocabulary and feel for how English is put > > together was absorbed through reading. As a kid, when I didn't know how to > > put something, I would open two or three books and see how those authors did > > it. > > The result is, by and large, that you _do_ know the rules of grammar; > you just don't _consciously_ know them. You picked them up between > the ages of 1 and 5, and then strengthened them and refined them by > extensive reading. > > The previous passage, for instance, shows that you know where nouns, > verbs, and adjectives go; in what order they should be in a sentence; > mastery of tense; proper use of conjunctions; and quite a few more > that I don't have the vocabulary to name but Jean probably does... I'd like to say that I appreciate this post. Too often, when we see a critique, or any action of a "critic" as pointing out where things went wrong. We don't often see being "critical" in a "positive" light. Too often we gloss over the part that is right and of correct form--possibly because it is "expected." It is refreshing to see someone take the effort to point out what was right. Follow Your Bliss!! Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:00:54 CST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re[2]: metatype and antiselyn In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:16:56 CST Kaas writes, >Interestingly there is a complete and utter difference between the way >engineers (university educated) and technicians (trade school educated) think >about electricity. Technicians are taught negative electrons flow towards the >positive end of the circuit while Engineers are taught that positive "holes" >(left over places where electrons used to be) flow toward the negative end of >the circuit. This is because electrical engineering was a discipline long >before they figured out how electricity really works. At my trade school they >taught us how to think both ways, and I wouldn't be surprised if many >engineers do also. It's as if there were two completely different circuits >existed in the same time-space, one facing in one direction and its >shadow-partner (the one with flowing "holes") superimposed over it. Think of >a theater marquee with lights racing in one direction, dark bulbs racing in >the other. > >I have often thought of transfer in that way - the selyn racing into the >Sime, the "emptiness" racing into the Gen. And looking at those Gens with a >"need to give" sensation it almost suggests an entirely theoretical >shadow-selyn or anti-selyn that is the equivalent of electron "holes"... > food for thought. > Yes--yes--that is how it _feels_ for Gens, or at least for Donors. It takes Simes a long, long time to realize this--even though in denying it the channels are actually denying the evidence of their own senses as they experience the Gen's feelings in transfer. I think they think they are reading their own feedback or something--couldn't possibly feel as good for a Gen as for a Sime! Jean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: metatype/voting for "lar" > In a message dated 97-09-04 21:50:01 EDT, you write: << I still vote for "polarity".. >> >> Shortens nicely to "pole", also ..... but won't users of the term be drawn to >> call one "plus" or "positive" and the other "minus" or "negative" ? >>Also, 'pole' is an existing word. >However, JL said something in the names thread about authors taking >existing >names and .. sort of 'shortening' them. >I don't know how you guys say 'polarity', but the Australian accent puts the >emphasis on the middle syllable. >Let's try the word 'lar'. It sounds Simelannish to me, it comes from one of >our favourite words, and it isn't an existing word with an existing meaning. >So.. which lar are you? > >Jenn (Gen?) V. > I LOVE IT!! If it was put to a vote, I vote for "lar" if it's needed for the novels and for definitions. It sounds Simelan to me, too. Lynda :-) lyndatatad@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:26:25 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: metatype I liked "subspecies," but clearly it won't work, biologically. "Race" isn't accurate either, for similar reasons -- Simes can produce Gen offspring and vice versa, whereas this doesn't happen with races/subspecies. Also, the current racial differences still exist in some form in the S/G world, so that term has a preexisting application. "Moy" for "moiety" is kind of cute. But I rather liked "dimorphism" as the term for the dichotomy and "morph" as the word (corresponding to "race" or "sex") for what an individual is. About the religious thread (on the Rathorite site), if my few postings would be useful, feel free to re-post them. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: metatype Just thought of something (has this been brought up before?): Biologists -- aren't there some plants or fungi that have 2 possible forms, sexual and asexual, usually alternating generations? What is that dichotomy called? Would that provide a term we could use? Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: metatype (polarity) Yeah, on second or third thought, "polarity" is an elegant choice of terminology. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Grammar/style (legalese) If by "legalese" you mean the dialect in which laws are written, nowadays the drafters make a genuine effort for clarity. The Maryland drafters' manual prescribes that a person of normal intelligence should be able to understand the material, and old-fashioned "legalese" terms for which ordinary English equivalents exist should be avoided. However, the stylistic rules of law drafting do differ in some glaring ways from the "real world" rules of good prose style. For instance, writers are normally taught to avoid monotonous repetition of the same word in a passage of exposition or narrative. But in writing a section of legal code, the drafter MUST use the same word for the same concept, every time without exception. Probably voracious reading is the best way to pick up the elements of "standard English" -- though with some of the things that get published nowadays, popular fiction is no longer a completely reliable source for good English! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:13:51 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: metatype Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Just thought of something (has this been brought up before?): Biologists -- >aren't there some plants or fungi that have 2 possible forms, sexual and >asexual, usually alternating generations? What is that dichotomy called? > Would that provide a term we could use? The two types of generations in plants are gametophyte (gamete-forming plants) and sporophyte (spore-forming plants). Neither term describes the split between Simes and Gens, both of which are gamete-forming, and neither of which are plants. Neither does "alternating generations", since the production of "off parental type" offspring by Sime or Gen couples isn't nearly so neat. I vote for "lar", myself, as the best suggestion so far. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:17:21 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: GOSS: JL down a Dental Black Hole -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Today after doing just enough to start the pain again, the dentist decided that due to abnormalities in the problem tooth, I have to go see a specialist in root canal work. It isn't fun being a Farris in a world that doesn't understand there exists such a thing as a Farris. Monday, workmen are coming to do surgery on our back porch (at least they're carpenters not dentists) which is long overdue for such - about as long overdue as my tooth was. Tuesday is 17 hours of working the local election. Wednesday is errands put off since before Worldcon. I asked for a Thursday appointment but the referral doctor's office is closed today. This appointment is likely to take two days to recover from. Once again, if you don't hear from me on this list it isn't lack of interest !!!! I spend most of my email time these days dealing with off-list stuff. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:58:42 +0100 Reply-To: cindy@xxxxxx.co.uk Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Stoner Subject: Re: metatype and antiselyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Kaas writes, > > It's as if there were two completely different circuits > >existed in the same time-space, one facing in one direction and its > >shadow-partner (the one with flowing "holes") superimposed over it. Jean Lorrah wrote: > > > > Yes--yes--that is how it _feels_ for Gens, or at least for Donors. It > takes Simes a long, long time to realize this--even though in denying > it > the channels are actually denying the evidence of their own senses as > they experience the Gen's feelings in transfer. I think they think > they > are reading their own feedback or something--couldn't possibly feel as > good for a Gen as for a Sime! Jean The only thing that's always bothered me about channels is their pig-headed, blind insistence that I can't feel and sense what I know I can. I 'need' transfer, and I CAN read the gradients enough to know where to be to help my Channel, even if they won't believe me. Cheers Cindy Stoner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:33:33 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: "Grant Kendicott vs. the Tecton" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCBA21.D5221900" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCBA21.D5221900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please send us information on buying a copy of "Grant Kendicott versus the Tecton". Thanks! Laurie and Mary ---------- > From: Karen Litman > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: "Grant Kendicott vs. the Tecton" > Date: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 7:22 PM > > I managed to photocopy about 5 sets of Linda Frankel's "Grant Kendicott" > story from Zeor Forum #3 for anyone who is interested. This was shortly > discussed on the list as there is a Gay character story line in it. It is > about 20 pages at 5 cents a page (plus postage). Anyone who is interested > in receiving the story, please contact me privately through > (KLitman323@xxxxxx.com). Karen Litman ------=_NextPart_000_01BCBA21.D5221900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please send us information on buying a = copy of "Grant Kendicott versus the = Tecton".
Thanks!

Laurie and = Mary

----------
> From: Karen Litman <KLitman323@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: "Grant Kendicott vs. the = Tecton"
> Date: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 7:22 PM
> =
> I managed to photocopy about 5 sets of Linda Frankel's = "Grant Kendicott"
> story from  Zeor Forum #3 =  for anyone who is interested.   This was shortly
> = discussed on the list as there is a Gay character story line in it. =  It is
> about 20 pages at 5 cents a page (plus postage). =   Anyone who is interested
> in receiving the story, = please contact  me privately through
> (KLitman323@xxxxxx.00">). =    Karen Litman

------=_NextPart_000_01BCBA21.D5221900-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:25:04 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: HC CHANNEL'S DESTINY JL writes: << Looking for copies of Kraith Collected for someone who emailed me, I stumbled across two copies of HC Channel's Destiny that were in the Darkover Table Stock box. >> :-) But did you find the Kraith Collected . . . ? If there were any still floating around, how much are they? (That's for reference to a future that seems increasingly distant wherein I actually have money to send you! Don't worry, though -- I've got my money set aside for "The Farris Channel" -- Can't Wait! :-) Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: metatype Kaas writes: << I still vote for "polarity"... mostly because of the very clear analogy that can be drawn between electromagnetism/electricity and the non-magical aspects of selyn fields and selyn movement. >> Polarity. . . hmmm. Not as exotic as some of the other terms that have been discussed, but it could work. Still, it doesn't seem just exactly right, though -- can't quite put my finger on it. I do agree with your association with electromagnetism/ electricy, and the non-magical aspects of selyn fields and movement. It would make sense for Gen-ness and Sime-ness classifications to develop from the "ancient" terminology associated with electronic circuitry. Now there's a thought -- how about "Circuitry"? ;-) Or some bastardization of words like amperage and wattage. Or -- maybe a term that evolves from somebody's name: for example, Maxwell (from Maxwell's equations of electro-dynamics describing the interaction of electricity and magnetism). . . hmmm. (Usage: "What's his Maxslyn coefficient?" (probability of becoming Sime -- low maxslyn -- or Gen -- high maxslyn). Except that in most cases, apparently the birth profile of the child clearly dilineates which he or she will turn out to be. Still -- renSime! proves that there are exceptions to every rule, and that even when it seems certain what the outcome will be, Chance still steps in and throws a wrench into the workings. But I'm rambling. Not enough sleep! See y'all later. Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 01:25:08 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: metatype and antiselyn Kaas writes: << I have often thought of transfer in that way - the selyn racing into the Sime, the "emptiness" racing into the Gen. And looking at those Gens with a "need to give" sensation it almost suggests an entirely theoretical shadow-selyn or anti-selyn that is the equivalent of electron "holes"... food for thought. >> Cool! This is a really fascinating way to look at it. And it's certainly supported by Hugh's sensations during that memorable First Transfer (can that term be applied to Companions?) with Klyd. Shadow-selyn or anti-selyn. . . so, what happens when selyn and anti-selyn collide? ;-) Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:30:37 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: GOSS: JL down a Dental Black Hole In a message dated 97-09-06 09:30:39 EDT, you write: << -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Today after doing just enough to start the pain again, the dentist decided that due to abnormalities in the problem tooth, I have to go see a specialist in root canal work. It isn't fun being a Farris in a world that doesn't understand there exists such a thing as a Farris. Monday, workmen are coming to do surgery on our back porch (at least they're carpenters not dentists) which is long overdue for such - about as long overdue as my tooth was. Tuesday is 17 hours of working the local election. Wednesday is errands put off since before Worldcon. I asked for a Thursday appointment but the referral doctor's office is closed today. This appointment is likely to take two days to recover from. SOUNDS like you have a busy time ahead of you. Take care:( CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:27:29 -0700 Reply-To: Anpwhotep Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anpwhotep Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Comments: To: Jean Lorrah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:56:59 -0500, Jean Lorrah wrote: > >Yup, there are actual patterns to all this stuff! I teach a whole course >devoted to it. Jean > Reminds me of what a language instructor at the Defense Language Institute School of English at Lackland AFB used to say.... English is what happened when German mercenaries tried to get dates with French barmaids. Anpwhotep - -- Anpwhotep, Hm Ntrw, Wab Anpw anubis@xxxxxx.com Hail to you, you having come as Khepri, even Khepri who is creator of the gods. You rise and shine on the back of your mother, having appeared in glory as the King of the gods. Your mother Nut shall use her arms on your behalf in making greeting. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: cp850 Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQEVAwUBNBGSdNDXhzqsqjxxAQFJ3QgAlP0txqA5anI0l74Fs6hYaiOMbYzefIhl 8kaa//cUEBnxmuR40epsJto23uEM7cVi5My53OESU2vbJz+6VHfhcpkEW9gbykTR //eyKrTYjAV9jb5Opw8YPUnCGMzlLLeyImTKPvmILmRyEbdmnq8ZYM9inOp3Zc0Z 7fLojC0pkzv5gof6Wau0g4+DnpAye7ERky1vdddfv58KkQOlCFIZC3DTp6YsHHo4 5JifQBaIOt6o/iLgetUiVudnChJ7x6IPM0himmTm+jtSgNx7jAdz3BvWpovq9g7i 8MsL1T1BKk3e+9iO/Jd3+q/WPlzDuLxSUgA/1uVDTXJ+t/5m58LrZA== =1XhI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:12:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: English Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anpwhotep wrote, >Reminds me of what a language instructor at the Defense Language >Institute School of English at Lackland AFB used to say.... > >English is what happened when German mercenaries tried to get dates >with French barmaids. > Actually, it was the other way around. It was the Norman French who conquered England in 1066, picked up the local girls, and mingled the two languages. The Anglo-Saxons were the settled in folks--almost 500 years since they had driven the Celts out--while the Normans were for all practical purposes Vikings (Northmen). Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 20:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: NEWS:Founding400 In a message dated 97-09-06 18:32:26 EDT, you write: << We are now gearing up for Darkover where we hold the annual Sime~Gen gathering on the east coast, and Leigh is mulling over ways and means of launching a well-planned (as opposed to last minute) Room Party at Bucconeer (next year's Worldcon in Baltimore). >> Sounds like it went great!!! I'm thinking on attending Darkover. Can't wait! CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: NEWS: Awards Shelf There has been a new addition made to the Awards Shelf. "The Risa Tigue Gen (and Sime) Re-Use Award" has been created to honor those S/G fen who have given (or received) used computer equipment of their fellow fans, in the name of getting old time fans online. (run-on sentence award to follow). The Awards shelf is on the Webring or can be accessed directly at http://www.baichtal.com/kaas/sime~gen/tecton/awards.html --Kaas (Trophy-buffer for the stars) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:39:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Free computers available The following computers are available for free (or in some cases for the cost of shipping): 1) Tandy 1000-EX 2) IBM PS/2 3) Color 286 clone 4) Monochrome 8088 clone These machines can all hack email, but would not be particularly recommended for Web surfing. (Keep in mind that most Web stuff can be accessed via email file transfers, if you know how... that knowledge being publicly available) If you are in contact with a Sime/Gen fan who has no email access but would love to get on the list and cannot afford a computer of their own, please write to me (kbaichtal@xxxxxx.com) and let me know about them. To all who suggested people for the 486 I have away earlier, I still have the information but could use a letter from you letting me know if the person still needs a machine. Specific information on the machines is available on request. Thank you --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:26:57 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype and antiselyn In a message dated 97-09-05 11:23:57 EDT, you write: << I have often thought of transfer in that way - the selyn racing into the Sime, the "emptiness" racing into the Gen. And looking at those Gens with a "need to give" sensation it almost suggests an entirely theoretical shadow-selyn or anti-selyn that is the equivalent of electron "holes"... food for thought. >> Thanks for the elegant summary of the electrical polarity concept .... very well put.... "polarity" seems to be winning in the "polls" ..... There's the "pol"itical sense also.... but of course, the most useful words often have the largest number of connotations .... think of "have", "get" "sleep" .... PMN : ) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In a message dated 97-09-05 17:00:52 EDT, you write: << Currently in process of changing in English are dive-dove into dive-dived, and forecast-forecast into forecast-forecasted. Jean >> I find this very interesting. Thanks for posting that. >> In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... PMN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-05 04:54:50 EDT, you write: << I don't know how you guys say 'polarity', but the Australian accent puts the emphasis on the middle syllable. Let's try the word 'lar'. >> In the US that'd be pronounced "lehr" or "lair" rather than "lahr" .... but it works either way.... PMN : ) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:48:41 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Worldcon Comments: cc: MSFFA-L@xxxxxx.CC.ND.EDU, darkover-lovers@xxxxxx.org, Kathleen Woodbury , jmellon160@xxxxxx.com, pi_in_sky@xxxxxx.com, marie@xxxxxx.com, palmer@xxxxxx.net, amraam@xxxxxx.net, morrell@xxxxxx.net, sherwood-smith@xxxxxx.att.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" LoneStarCon 2, the 55th World Science Fiction Convention, was held in San Antonio over the Labor Day weekend. Although it did have some major problems, overall it was a very enjoyable convention. Although the convention actually opened on Thursday, dealers and their helpers were allowed into the dealers' room on Wednesday. Thus dealers were able to get their booths and tables ready for the actual opening of the con and be refreshed to greet the first customers on Thursday. Artists were also able to hang their art that day so that the art show would be ready as soon as the doors were opened. Here I ran into my first hassle of the con. This had been going on for a while, since I'd requested artist information several times over the past months and gotten no reply until just days before the con, too close to mail a packet or for me to get a check back to them for my hanging fees. However I was told that space would probably be available and I could pay at the con. When I got there, I discovered that word hadn't gotten through to the person in authority, so I might not get space after all. While the art show staff were trying to see if there was any space left, I consoled myself with the thought that I'm a writer first and an artist second, and if I didn't get to show my art, it wouldn't be an enormous loss. But space was found at the last minute (someone else had cancelled), and I was able to hang my things after all. The spaces were generously large, so I was able to get almost all of my current works up. And considering there were at least five hundred artists showing, it would have been really surprising if someone hadn't run into problems -- I just happened to be the unlucky one. On Thursday things were relatively quiet, since the con didn't open until noon, at which time the doors to the dealers' room were opened. The anticipated crowd came pouring in, but they were mostly just looking the first day. In fact, several openly commented that they were making their first round of the dealer's room without money to see what was available before deciding what to buy. I did get to two programming events -- the kaffeeklatch with Mike Resnick and the Speculations Magazine panel (the latter was recommended at the former, and since Mike Resnick recommended it specifically in response to my question, I figured it was best to show up). I was very glad that I'd called ahead to sign up for the kaffeeklatch with Mike Resnick, since it was well filled by the time signup began at the con. For those unfamiliar with Speculations, it is a bimonthly semiprozine dedicated to writers, with extensive market reports and articles on writing. This year it was nominated for a Hugo, although it didn't win (yet it is in good company, since Mike Resnick has lost more Hugos than most people can imagine). Although Speculations is a paper magazine, it has a Website at www.speculations.com giving information on what it is and what it does. Thursday evening the con suite finally opened, but in a very disorganized fashion with no food until late in the evening. The con suite was one of the most bogus things about this year's Worldcon. Perhaps I'm just spoiled by LAconIII's lavish con suite with programming of its own, but I think that a Worldcon should have its con suite open for more than just 5PM to midnight each evening. Some people were speculating that it was the result of a poorly-written or poorly-negotiated contract, by which the hotels and convention center were trying to force con-goers to purchase grossly over-priced food at their restaurants and the little buffet behind the dealers' room. There were some very good parties on Thursday evening, including the Chicago in 2000 one. The Philedelphia in 2001 bid party was another big one, having a giant suite with a balcony on the 19th floor. FOSFA had a rather quiet party where some serious political and philosophical discussion was in progress. On Friday the con really got going, with a large number of panels, including several good ones about the writing and publishing business. I attended the one about the changing of the guard at F&SF, and was able to get at least some notion of Gordon Van Gelder's tastes in stories -- that he has tastes that are very difficult to define, and that he's likely to take anything that strikes his interests. In the early afternoon I went to my writers' workshop session. This was something we had to sign up for ahead of time, since each of the participants (three professionals in the field and three writers) were mailed copies of the manuscripts up for critique and thus had time to read and critique them before the convention. We had some very good discussions about various technical aspects of writing. I was glad to know that this year I had a story that I could probably fix without too much major change. If next year's Worldcon runs a similar writers' workshop, I would wholeheartedly recommend it for anyone who wants to bring their writing to a professional level. Later that afternoon I went to the kaffeeklatch with Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hadyen. Patrick spent a lot of time talking about what he wanted for the _Starlight 2_ anthology, which he is still putting together. However there was also a little time for more general talk about the novel-publishing business. Both of them agreed that there is no longer a comfortable nitche for the "safe" formula novel, and that writers should concentrate on writing what they would want to read and making it the best novel they can write. That evening we geared up for the Sime~Gen Party. It turned out to be quite a success, since both Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah were in attendance. Jacqueline spent the first hour or two talking about the universe, the plans for the movie, and a little about the philosophy of writing. Later in the evening, Jean Lorrah read her new novella, which Jacqueline has OK'ed for submission to professional markets. While that was going on, I stood outside the door to the room and talked to people who were passing by, explaining the background of the S~G universe and what was going on. During that time we also got a surprising number of new sign-ups for First Farris, and many other people took fliers but did not fill them in (we can hope that they will later contact us with their pledges of support). Because I was involved in running the party, I really didn't get much chance to go to other parties on Friday night. I did get to the Chicago in 2000 party to pick up my collector's card and be present at the midnight drawing. I also did get down to the Art Reception in the art show very briefly, just enough to say hi to a few Chicago-area artists that I knew. Saturday was another fairly busy day at the dealers' room, and I did get to several panels. The first was the one on agents, which included several practicing agents as well as writers. They were able to give a number of helpful pointers on chosing an agent and working with an agent. I took nearly three pages of notes, making it one of the most productive sessions I went to. In the afternoon I went to one called "Should I Sleep With the Editor?" which apparently was intended to be a serious panel on the dos and don'ts of professional conduct in the writing business. However Gardner Dozois immediately turned it into a side-splitting humorous panel by passing out sign-up sheets for time and location -- everybody signed up with totally silly things like "Countess Dracula," "Cthulhu" and "Lady Hamilton." However it was useful in relieving some tension by giving us all a good laugh. Afterward I went to a panel on worldbuilding which included some really good information on techniques and research strategies for creating a believable world that holds together. I also got to speak briefly to Walter Jon Williams afterward. That evening I had been intending to wander the parties, but then I got a call from Danielle Dabbs, a writer friend of mine, to join her for the Hugo Ceremonies. So I hurried downstairs to meet Danielle. We got in just in time to get some reasonably good seats and settle in for the Hugos. Neal Barrett Jr.'s humorous beginning didn't quite meet with my or Danielle's tastes in humor, but once the actual awards began, I really enjoyed it. Mimosa won Best Fanzine, while Locus won Best Semiprozine. Gardner Dozois took the Best Professional Editor award. The biggest cheer went up when the Babylon 5 episode "Severed Dreams" won the Best Dramatic Presentation. J Michael Straczynski had some very moving and enlightening words to say in his acceptance speech about writing and the big questions in life. When the Hugos were over, Danielle and I both agreed to wait for the stampeed to pass before leaving. That gave us a little extra time to talk about the philosophy of writing while we were waiting. Once we were satisfied that the worst of the crowd at the elevators was over, we headed out. Moments after we got on one of the elevators, a young man joined us and asked, "Have you heard the news?" Then he told us about Princess Diana's wreck. At the time, Dodi was already dead but Diana was holding onto life. We were both rather stunned as we made our way up to my room to drop off a camera for one of my roommates (it had gotten accidentally left in my bag). Then Danielle took me up to the SFWA suite, where we talked about writing some more. The time went before I realized it, and it was 2AM before I finally turned in for the night. Sunday was another busy day for me, since I was having to work the dealer's room with way too little sleep. I also got to several good panels, including The Editor's Slushpile, in which Gardner Dozois, Ellen Datlow, Gordon Van Gelder and Anne Lesley Groell read some stuff that was so bad that it was funny. They also had some practical advice about how to rise above 90% of the submissions that they received. After that I went to the kaffeeklatch with Ellen Datlow. She opened the hour with some discussion of Omni Online and what she's trying to do with it. As the session drew near its end, I asked her about what the situation was with her fairy tale anthologies, and she talked about them for a while. After the kaffeeklatch was over, I went to the Day in the Life of an Editor panel, which was more about the professional duties of an editor, but did give some information on why editors are looking for what they want. That evening we made the mistake of going to a Denny's that had incredibly slow service. By the time we finally got out of there, it was really too late to do many of the parties. I got to the Chicon 2000 thank-you party and turned in my cards to get a free conversion to an attending membership. I also visited the Bucconner party and another party where I talked briefly with some of the local SMOF's about the logistics of running a good party. On Monday I spent most of my time in the dealer's room, helping people who were making their final purchases before leaving. I also went to the art show and checked out my art when it became painfully obvious that waiting any longer wasn't going to increase my chances of a sale. Then we boxed up the shop and got it loaded to head back north. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:49:23 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In-Reply-To: <970907112642_19259513@xxxxxx.com> from "PM Newcomb" at Sep 7, 97 11:26:45 am Content-Type: text > In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... Whatever happened to "slew" ? :) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:50:39 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: NEWS:Founding400 JL writes: << At the party we collected filled out FOUNDING 400 registrations - and Captain Button made a special trip out in the heat to fetch the pile from his car to give me so we could count and report when I got home. With what was handed to me here and there, we have 14 new Founding 400's plus at least half that in people who say they'll buy the illustrated pb but not the hc. It could be that those people saw ILLUSTRATED and didn't realize that signing up for the pb won't contribute to getting the contract. >> Glad it went so well! Some feedback on the Founding 400 form: perhaps you should clarify exactly which choice(s?) will contribute toward getting the contract. In looking at the form, it's not obvious that one must check the $25 option to contribute toward getting the book published. Also: in seeing the form again, and reading your Post, I began to wonder if **I** signed up to contribute toward getting the book published, as opposed to just getting a copy when it's out. Does choosing the Last option (the "I'll send money when I hear it's been published" option) also contribute toward getting it published? Because -- and I can't remember what I chose -- I may need to change my choice if not! (I ****Definitely***** want to get that book published!!!!! :-) [snip convention details] <> I live on the East Coast, north of Boston. Where is Darkover going to be held???? And When???? I suspect that I'm just too dirt poor right now to attend Anything farther than a few hours away from where I live -- but who knows? Amazing what advanced planning can do! As for the Founding 400 Order form: here's my suggestion for clarifying the form: <<[snip top of form] Check all that apply: To Help get the book Published and be included as a Founding 400 Member: _________ I would pay $25.00 for a hardcover copy of "The Farris Channel". To reserve a First Edition copy of the book for myself: __________I would pay $15.00 for an illustrated trade paperback of "The Farris Channel". _________I would send in a check to reserve my copy of either book once the manuscript had been sent to the printer and a release date had been announced. Other: _________ Please send me ________ flyers so I can help spread the word.>> The wording is probably not correct: "First Edition", for example, and, of course, the highlighting is optionsl (I just did that to emphasize the areas that I changed) -- but you get the gist. Hope this helps! Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: metatype JennV writes: << Let's try the word 'lar'. It sounds Simelannish to me, it comes from one of our favourite words, and it isn't an existing word with an existing meaning. So.. which lar are you? >> Actually -- this term is growing on me! Might just do, at that. . . Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:41:15 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: English In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970906201224.006a52f0@xxxxxx.edu> from "Jean Lorrah" at Sep 6, 97 03:12:24 pm Content-Type: text Jean wrote: > Anpwhotep wrote, > >English is what happened when German mercenaries tried to get dates > >with French barmaids. > Actually, it was the other way around. It was the Norman French who > conquered England in 1066, picked up the local girls, and mingled the two > languages. The Anglo-Saxons were the settled in folks--almost 500 years > since they had driven the Celts out--while the Normans were for all > practical purposes Vikings (Northmen). Jean The Normans are pretty much unique, actually -- they're not exactly Frenchmen (though they speak French pretty much universally by this point), but neither are they really Vikings anymore. They've become a fairly lethal blend of both cultures. (Recommended: Anything by David Douglas or Eleanor Searles. You're in my area of expertise now. ) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: NEWS: Awards Shelf On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:32:17 -0400 Kaas Baichtal writes: ><<< No Message Collected >>> > Help! What happened to the message? Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: metatype On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:12:12 -0500 Jacqueline Lichtenberg writes: >Actually, I like the word moiety and have since I learned it way back >in >grammar school (reading sf enlarges the vocabulary -- it was a >favorite of >several writers in those days, I'm not sure if Heinlein and/or Poul >Andersen As I recall, it was used in Citizen of the Galaxy by Heinlein. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:22:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: metatype and antiselyn On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:26:57 -0400 PM Newcomb writes: >In a message dated 97-09-05 11:23:57 EDT, you write: > >Thanks for the elegant summary of the electrical polarity concept .... >very >well put.... "polarity" seems to be winning in the "polls" ..... >There's the >"pol"itical sense also.... but of course, the most useful words often >have >the largest number of connotations .... think of "have", "get" "sleep" If we're taking a poll, I vote against metatype and morph. The first is too technical for general use. As for morph, I think it applies more to the change from child to Sime where we see a distinct difference at the end of the process. (Morphing in computer graphics is visual.) I like the associations with "polarity" but I vote for "lar" as the shortened form. "Pole" also means someone from Poland. There are too many ethnic jokes floating around about the Poles. So "pol" sets off a lot of "cognitive dissonance" for me. (BTW, I'm not Polish and other ethnic jokes get to me too.) Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:49:23 -0700 Tony Zbaraschuk writes: >> In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... > >Whatever happened to "slew" ? :) > > >Tony Z > I know both are correct, just in different constructions. The MS Bookshelf gives the following definitions: slay (slâ) verb, transitive slew (sl¡) slain (slân) slaying, slays 1. To kill violently. 2. Slang. To overwhelm, as with laughter or love: Those old jokes still slay me. [Middle English slen, slayen, from Old English slêan.] - slay´er noun slew2 slew (sl¡) verb Past tense of slay. slain slain (slân) verb Past participle of slay. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.) Here's an example of slew and an example of slain I found by searching the dictionary: David David (dâ´vîd) Died c. 962 B.C. The second king of Judah and Israel. According to the Old Testament, he slew the Philistine giant Goliath and succeeded Saul as king. He is the reputed author of many of the Psalms. Goliath1 Goliath (ge-lì´eth) In the Old Testament, a giant Philistine warrior who was slain by David with a stone and sling. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.) Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Worldcon On Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:48:41 -1758 Leigh Kimmel writes: >Thursday evening the con suite finally opened, but in a very >disorganized >fashion with no food until late in the evening. The con suite was one >of >the most bogus things about this year's Worldcon. Perhaps I'm just >spoiled >by LAconIII's lavish con suite with programming of its own, but I >think >that a Worldcon should have its con suite open for more than just 5PM >to >midnight each evening. Some people were speculating that it was the >result >of a poorly-written or poorly-negotiated contract, by which the hotels >and >convention center were trying to force con-goers to purchase grossly >over-priced food at their restaurants and the little buffet behind the >dealers' room. > In an ideal world you're right - the con suite should be open longer hours. The word we got at Ursa Major was that the con committee didn't have any one to run the con suite. Judith Ward volunteered at the last minute to do so. However, she didn't have neer enough helpers. She told us yesterday, at the Star Trek: San Antonio meeting, that every time someone complained about the hours, she asked them to volunteer some time. No one did so. Several local fans volunteered to help in the con suite at the last minute. Ursa Major members helped load con suite food Tuesday night for transportation to the con. They also helped out Friday night. Considering that we only have 12 members, 2 of whom were on the program several times, and an auction of our own to run Saturday, we felt that we had done our part. >That evening we geared up for the Sime~Gen Party. It turned out to be >quite >a success, since both Jacqueline Lichtenberg and Jean Lorrah were in >attendance. Jacqueline spent the first hour or two talking about the >universe, the plans for the movie, and a little about the philosophy >of >writing. Later in the evening, Jean Lorrah read her new novella, which >Jacqueline has OK'ed for submission to professional markets. While >that was >going on, I stood outside the door to the room and talked to people >who >were passing by, explaining the background of the S~G universe and >what was >going on. During that time we also got a surprising number of new >sign-ups >for First Farris, and many other people took fliers but did not fill >them >in (we can hope that they will later contact us with their pledges of >support). Leigh, Larry, & Cpt. Button did a great job on the party with all sorts of wonderful things to eat. Among them were strawberries with chocolate sauce for the gens; sodas and trin tea for everyone. While I was standing in line to get my Bujold autographs, I struck up a conversation with the couple behind me. As a result I got another pledge. Which I turned in at Jacqueline's Koffeklatch At least one other person turned in her pledge at the Koffeklatch. Although there were only enough people for one table, we had a great discussion. And it lasted two hrs instead of the programmed 1 hr. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:40:03 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:26 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-05 17:00:52 EDT, PMNewcomb writes: > >In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... Yes--I have seen this one a few times in recent years, so it, too, is beginning the transition. In fact, does anyone even _remember_ that the past tense of slay is supposed to be slew? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:03:59 +0100 Reply-To: cindy@xxxxxx.co.uk Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Stoner Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > At 11:26 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 97-09-05 17:00:52 EDT, PMNewcomb writes: > > > >In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... > > Yes--I have seen this one a few times in recent years, so it, too, is > beginning the transition. In fact, does anyone even _remember_ that > the > past tense of slay is supposed to be slew? Jean > Yes. I've been cringing every time I see slay, slayed. It is wrong. It sends shivers up my spine. However, the current language change conversations imply that I'll just have to get used to slayed, since it is becoming right. Cheers Cindy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:17:45 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: QAMH Organization: QAMH Subject: Re: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PM Newcomb wrote: > In a message dated 97-09-05 04:54:50 EDT, you write: > > << I don't know how you guys say 'polarity', but the Australian accent > puts > the > emphasis on the middle syllable. > > Let's try the word 'lar'. >> > > In the US that'd be pronounced "lehr" or "lair" rather than "lahr" > .... but > it works either way.... > > PMN : ) I also like polarity, or "lar" for short. And it does sound simelan to me. If there is a vote this would be the one i would choose. Stay Safe, stay Strong. Zoe. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:19:41 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Lar In-Reply-To: <34136E58.427395D3@xxxxxx..au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I also like polarity, or "lar" for short. And it does sound simelan > to me. If there is a vote this would be the one i would choose. In ancient Roman culture, a "lar" is a little household god. The plural is "lares" which is where the Latin expression "lares et penates" comes from. "Lares et penates" (pronounced lar-ays et penah-tays) are the little household god statues and things on the home altar, which you prayed to. From that meaning it went on to mean anything connected with your home and home-religion. I don't think that Ancients put up little statues of Simes and Gens though. Classically, Hannah M.G.Shapero ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth I vote for 'Lar' too. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:08:20 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: metatype -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- PM Newcomb wrote: > > > On the other hand, each member, Sime or Gen, is *half* of a wonderful thing: a > transfer pair .... a complete selyn production/consumption unit .... yin/yang > ... rejoined souls etc..... JL here: no, not EACH member, Sime or Gen. There are MORE GENS than Simes, therefore there can't be anything like "marriage" between Sime and Gen because there are a lot of extra Gens (at least once they stop killing 13/year/Sime!!) Male/Female seems to sort of even out on average, wars and famines notwithstanding. There's some sort of feedback/control mechanism that keeps the balance near equal -- (which is gone now since we can predict gender in the womb and even skew the odds by behavior regarding intercourse ). But the natural balance between Sime and Gen is strongly skewed toward the Gen side at least until a lot of artificial factors come into play. Keep in mind, it's physically easier to bear a Gen than to bear a Sime. And Gens tend to survive puberty better than Simes. Once medical science makes a dent in those factors, you might find the population evening out. I'm not sure because by then CHOICE will come into play and cultural preferences etc. If there's an inherent feedback mechanism balancing the Sime and Gen sides of the population against each other, then it will be set to skew to the Gen side because that's survival of the species as a whole. The question that's open in my mind is will that skew be as steep as the ratio of 13 Gens/Sime/Year would indicate? I don't think so. I think that if there is a "setting" to that meter, it'll be taking into account the "natural" way to use Gens (i.e. to re-use them). However, I "know" there skew is pretty steep because the THEORY behind this whole thing is that Gens are a "renewable energy source" - creating enough energy to run most of an interstellar civilization. Yes, when a Gen gives away selyn at a high rate, the Gen tends to create more selyn faster the next time -- up to a natural physical limit (pathology notwithstanding). But even so, there have to be more Gens than Simes by quite a nice factor. And yes, Sime/Gen is a sort of "yin/yang" situation, but set at 90degrees to that axis. Sime~Gen is another "dimension" on the graph. So somewhere in mathematics we may find the term we're looking for. I wish I could draw this for you and post it on the web. I have new software that may be able to do it -- if I COULD. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:04:47 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- KlanaSime: (This actually doesn't pertain to anyone else -- just delete it if you're not KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com) I just had a post to KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com returned, "pernament error, user unknown". This is an alias for someone on this List and I want to get this post to her/him -- it's about getting the role playing up onto a website. I'm trimming some garbage out because the listserver will choke on it -- leaving the rest. The original message was received at Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:08:58 -0400 (EDT) from j51.com [199.224.7.51] If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct address. Point your WWW browser at http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you locate the email address you are looking for! NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. -AOL Postmaster The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to air13.mail.aol.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 Mailbox not found 550 ... User unknown Return-Path: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [165.254.214.36] (pmb4.ucs.net [165.254.214.36]) by j51. com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04105; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709081708.NAA04105@xxxxxx.com> KlanaSime: FOR FUTURE REFERENCE: CHANGE my eddress in your mailer to zeor@xxxxxx.net (thank you!!) Did you know Simes is a real Russian last name? In fact there's a famous man by that name. Is it possible to have the transcript of these "events" posted to a website? I have an ulterior motive here. There's the group of very hard working and enthusiastic fans trying to create a real Sime~Gen game in order to head-off any movie interests from simpling commissioning one made to exploit the movie. To get such hypothetical big money players to take us seriously (and to increase the chances of the movie sale) we send them to the websites for proof that there really are still living fans of Sime~Gen (which implies Sime~Gen might be popular as a movie). A website featuring this type of activity and proving it really occurred would greatly enhance our chances of making the movie deal and getting them to take OUR game rather than some horrible piece of nonsense. If there's any way to make that happen, link that site into the webring and let me know it exists. Anonymous is actually a very interesting concept and I think it will tickle "them" even more than it does me. LL&P JL -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- > Date: Monday, 01-Sep-97 11:28 PM > > From: K lanaSime \ America Online: (K LANASIME) > To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg \ America Online: (AMBROVZEOR) > > Subject: HI > > We're really enjoying massacaring the sime/gen universe in roleplaying! > > Actually, we're having a lot of fun. None of us nkow who each other is. We're > using alises. As you can see. We also drop the names occasionally, so if you > an't reply, it doesn't mean I'm not here. I am actually on the simegen > listserv! -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: Re: Found Nova Serafino Comments: To: "lwarner@Capital.Net" , Karen Litman , Mike Giroux Comments: cc: Kerry -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: This below is from Donell Meadows who plays the hammer dulcimer for us at Faith Day Ceremonies. Donell can be reached c/o (kestryl@xxxxxx.net) Donell writes: It looks good for us coming to DO....I'll bring my dulcimer & play some tunes at your party...I have gotton into creating my own music & have come up with quirky titles such as ;The Grumpy Bluebird & Feast at Outlaws Bridge ...It's a lot of fun! JL here: Anyone on this List planning to go to Darkover who wants to participate in the Sime~Gen filking let Donell know directly (Donell isn't on the Listserve yet). Donell - does Kerry have any more of the SONGBOOK in stock? I don't have any here. - Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:09:24 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: metatype In-Reply-To: <199709081707.NAA04022@xxxxxx.com> from "Jacqueline Lichtenberg" at Sep 8, 97 01:08:20 pm Content-Type: text Jacqueline wrote: > JL here: no, not EACH member, Sime or Gen. There are MORE GENS than Simes, > therefore there can't be anything like "marriage" between Sime and Gen > because there are a lot of extra Gens (at least once they stop killing > 13/year/Sime!!) Male/Female seems to sort of even out on average, wars and > famines notwithstanding. There's some sort of feedback/control mechanism > that keeps the balance near equal -- (which is gone now since we can predict > gender in the womb and even skew the odds by behavior regarding intercourse > ). But the natural balance between Sime and Gen is strongly skewed toward > the Gen side at least until a lot of artificial factors come into play. The male/female feedback balance runs more or less as follows (and does so virtually universally in sexual species): If you have a prevalance of one gender, then the smaller gender is almost guaranteed to have an opportunity to reproduce, and the larger isn't. So it's more advantageous from the long-term reproductive view to have offspring of the less numerous gender... which swings the balance back. This applies even in "choice" situations (like the present tendency in India and China to abort or murder female offspring because you want a male.) When all those males grow up, there will be more of them than women, so the ones who get to reproduce will be the ones who can offer the best deal to the women, which will even out the male-bias factor. (Or some folks will choose to _have_ female babies, since they see all these excess men around ... and the balance swings back.) Of course, there can be a lot of human suffering involved -- the mathematical laws that govern human demography don't _care_ about individuals... but watch what happens in China over the next half-century or so. Should be interesting. > Once medical science makes a dent in those factors, you might find the > population evening out. I'm not sure because by then CHOICE will come into > play and cultural preferences etc. > The question that's open in my mind is will that skew be as steep as the > ratio of 13 Gens/Sime/Year would indicate? I don't think so. I think that > if there is a "setting" to that meter, it'll be taking into account the > "natural" way to use Gens (i.e. to re-use them). As I understand it, the rule-of-thumb is that 2/3 of Gen/Gen pairings, and 1/3 of Sime/Sime pairings, will produce Gens. I'm not sure about Sime/Gen pairings (are they 50-50?), but I ran a quick simulation, and (if all the kids survive) then it's not very long at all before the populations converge on a 50-50 ratio. If Sime/Gen pairings are preferentially one lar or the other, that could skew the results somewhat. "Not very long", by the way, works out to "less than five generations". (And that's if I started with 2.5 million Gens to 500 Simes.) As long as you have vast numbers of Gens giving birth to a substantial fraction of Simes, it doesn't really matter how few Simes there were originally, because the Gens will just give birth to lots of them in addition. At 90% similarity (i.e., 90% of G/G pairings are G, and 90% of S/S pairings are S), then the populations don't converge for probably 20 generations, but they're still very close within 5-8 generations. Of course, this isn't going to happen until after the Territory borders come down and the Gens stop killing Sime children in changeover. And the greater Sime vulnerability to accidental injuries, etc., would probably result in the actual population being somewhat slanted towards Gens, but I'd have to do a _much_ more detailed analysis, taking bundles of factors into account. (I really need that paper on S/G genetics!) But I can say, that within a couple of centuries after RENSIME, the two lars are probably more-or-less equal in number. That's the long- term equilibrium point, anyway. (Differential mortality among Simes and Gens may affect the population balance somewhat, though.) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:21:19 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Metatype: feedback factors Content-Type: text Of course, what I hadn't considered in my analysis (and realized just twenty seconds after I sent my message) was feedback factors. If there's some factor depending on the relative numbers of the two lars, then just about _anything_ can happen. (There's a reason why the study of iterative feedback loops is part of "chaos dynamics"). For example, if a mother surrounded by Simes had a higher chance of conceiving a Gen baby (we can say that pheromenes or something influenced the womb environment such that a Gen fetus was more likely to implant, or a Gen egg more likely to ovulate -- or maybe it's the relative sperm count ratio that's affected, who knows?) then that would tend to reduce the relative number of Simes (though, again, I suspect that the ratios would balance out at 50/50 in the long run, but probably jump all over the place from generation to generation). (And can you see the ads? "Members of the Church of the Purity! Move to Sime Territory! Your kids will be more likely to be Gen!") Any idea what other feedback loops might be in operation? Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sime/Gen RPG on AOL Subject: Re: KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com In a message dated 97-09-08 15:06:22 EDT, zeor@xxxxxx.NET writes: << I just had a post to KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com returned, "pernament error, user unknown". >> Alas, the character named K'lanaSime met an awful fate at the hands (literally) of a Gen named Aleiaa (also sadly demised). The only permanent, non-character email address associated with the game is Tentacled@xxxxxx.com which is an all purpose general contact address. The question of whether to post the logs to the web will be put to a vote among the players... if they agree, the only question will be: Who on the List is willing to supply web space and make timely updates as the logs are received? Yours, Tentacled ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:00:03 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PM Newcomb wrote: > > In a message dated 97-09-05 04:54:50 EDT, you write: > > << I don't know how you guys say 'polarity', but the Australian accent puts > the > emphasis on the middle syllable. > > Let's try the word 'lar'. >> > > In the US that'd be pronounced "lehr" or "lair" rather than "lahr" .... but > it works either way.... > > PMN : ) I pronounce it with a short a as part of polarity, and with a long a on its own. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:24:59 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > At 11:26 AM 9/7/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 97-09-05 17:00:52 EDT, PMNewcomb writes: > > > >In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... > > Yes--I have seen this one a few times in recent years, so it, too, is > beginning the transition. In fact, does anyone even _remember_ that the > past tense of slay is supposed to be slew? Jean > make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant Isn't it: I slew him He was slain such that slew would be past tense, and slain past participle? Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: archetype Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tony writes, >But I can say, that within a couple of centuries after RENSIME, the >two lars are probably more-or-less equal in number. That's the long- >term equilibrium point, anyway. (Differential mortality among Simes >and Gens may affect the population balance somewhat, though.) > Yes--thank goodness we have someone on the list who can do the math on what everyone else senses instinctively. Jacqueline, you are going against both the biological situation you have set up (Gens, though they don't know it, can only achieve a peak of good health by giving transfer regularly) and the duality archetype that S~G is built on, by insisting that there will forever be only a fraction as many Simes as Gens. No--in an ideal society, every Gen would be interacting regularly with a Sime who comes reasonably close in match. It will mean adjusting the human family, as that Sime and Gen need to be together at certain times for both their health and sanity, but most transfer relationships will NOT be marriages. S~G relationships would, in fact, be more stable in general than marriages, because they are based on a very specific biological need between the partners. The human household would probably, over the generations after the Tecton is ejected from its position between the partners, evolve into a kind of miniature Householding, one or more S~G pairs and their significant others, children, etc. But once this stability is reached, again the series is over. However, the increase in the number of surviving Simes that Tony points out is inevitable after the events of RENSIME, along with more and more Gens donating regularly and losing all fear of Simes, will lead inevitably to people, Sime and Gen, flat-out refusing to let the channels stand between them anymore. Now seriously, what are you going to do--start jailing every Sime and Gen who find it more fun (and a better fit into their busy schedules) to forego the monthly appointment at the Sime Center and just do it themselves? Every fan recognizes that this is where the series is heading, Jacqueline. We will probably never write the book in which it gets there, but you might as well forget blowing the archetype--you cannot fight the human collective unconsciousness. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:47:45 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:24 PM 9/9/97 +1000, Jenn wrote: >Jean Lorrah wrote: >> >> Yes--I have seen this one a few times in recent years, so it, too, is >> beginning the transition. In fact, does anyone even _remember_ that the >> past tense of slay is supposed to be slew? Jean > >Isn't it: > > I slew him > He was slain > >such that slew would be past tense, and slain past participle? > Yes, that's right. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ "I don't think happiness is a permanent state; it's some kind of treaty you make with your circumstances at the time."--Robert Plant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:26:29 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: metatype In-Reply-To: <199709082109.OAA20525@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII About choosing M or F babies, or Sime or Gen as well: I have often wondered what our world would be like if there were a simple and easily gotten drug which guaranteed that a child would be male. I think people in most societies, especially Arab, Chinese, Indian, etc. want male children so an imbalance would quickly happen. People are not rational enough to think 20 years down the road to when all those males (or most of them) will want to have mates. So in a generation males would outnumber females by a huge margin. L. Neil Smith's THE RAINBOW CADENZA (which I have only encountered in summary, haven't read) deals with this type of world, where guaranteed male births have led to a society in which males outnumber females by 7 to 1, and females are kept in sex slavery to service all these males. I don't know whether guaranteeing Sime or Gen births would have that same unbalancing effect since Simes must "feed" off Gens and depend on them for life itself on a monthly basis, rather than only for reproductive chances. Hannah M.G.Shapero ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:34:50 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: archetype Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, Tony's math is absolutely correct. It takes five generations to go from a population which is all Sime (or all Gen) to one that's about half and half. If you kill off half of your Simes at changeover (and there's no indication that changeover mortality is that high where training is available), then it takes two generations longer to reach this equilibrium. Even cultural factors like Gen Territory encouraging large families while Sime Territory couples have small ones doesn't stem the tide for very long. Besides, once the Tecton takes over Gen Territory culturally (and it's well on its way by UNTO, since it's the source of new technology), there will be a gradual convergence of family sizes between Simes and Gens. Once Gen Territory allows changeover training of their children for four or five generations, there will NEVER be a high enough changeover death rate to maintain a skewed Sime/Gen ratio. >Tony writes, >>But I can say, that within a couple of centuries after RENSIME, the >>two lars are probably more-or-less equal in number. That's the long- >>term equilibrium point, anyway. (Differential mortality among Simes >>and Gens may affect the population balance somewhat, though.) >> > >Of course, what I hadn't considered in my analysis (and realized just >twenty seconds after I sent my message) was feedback factors. If >there's some factor depending on the relative numbers of the two >lars, then just about _anything_ can happen. (There's a reason >why the study of iterative feedback loops is part of "chaos dynamics"). The one-third-of-kids-opposite-type (lar?) is an _observed ratio_ at puberty. That means that by the time it occurs, all factors which effect conception, gestation, survival of birth, and so on, have already been accounted for. The only way to maintain a skewed ratio is by invoking a post-puberty factor: mortality. If Gens live an average of 20-30% longer than Simes, then the population as a while can be maintained skewed towards the Gen side. Nothing else will leave enough of an excess of Gens to fill the batteries which power the interstellar civilization. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:24:25 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: metatype In-Reply-To: from "Hannah M.G. Shapero" at Sep 9, 97 01:26:29 am Content-Type: text Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > I have often wondered what our world would be like if there were a > simple and easily gotten drug which guaranteed that a child would be male. > I think people in most societies, especially Arab, Chinese, Indian, > etc. want male children so an imbalance would quickly happen. People are > not rational enough to think 20 years down the road to when all those > males (or most of them) will want to have mates. So in a generation males > would outnumber females by a huge margin. Sure. For one generation. But where are all those men finding mates? Answer: from the groups that thought that having women is a good idea. So _those_ groups will have better reproductive rates than the ones that think that having all sons is wonderful. In the long run, the situation pushes itself back into balance. (We can see this happening in Lois McMaster Bujold's later Vorkosigan books, notably MIRROR DANCE and MEMORY, where it's a minor background plot point.) > L. Neil Smith's THE RAINBOW CADENZA (which I have only encountered > in summary, haven't read) deals with this type of world, where guaranteed > male births have led to a society in which males outnumber females by 7 to > 1, and females are kept in sex slavery to service all these males. J. Neil Schulman, actually, and like most libertarian fiction he lets his ideology outrun plausibility by a huge margin (the world depends on everybody agreeing to have six boys for every girl -- are there no disagreements with Official State Policy? Are there no movements to have some extra women? But no, it has to be this way so Schulman can set up his "drafting people to make love is as bad as drafting them to make war" attack on the "make love not war" movement.") It's worth reading, though: there are some interesting sections & elements. Just be prepared to jump-start willing suspension of disbelief several times... > I don't know whether guaranteeing Sime or Gen births would have > that same unbalancing effect since Simes must "feed" off Gens and depend > on them for life itself on a monthly basis, rather than only for > reproductive chances. Actually, it would probably result (initially) in the majority of Gen parents (who live in Gen Territory) choosing to have predominantly Gen babies, which will help, for a while, keep the ratios Gen-high. Depends on the time-period, though. Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:12:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Worldcon Leigh Kimmel wrote: >Thursday evening the con suite finally opened, but in a very disorganized >fashion with no food until late in the evening. The con suite was one of >the most bogus things about this year's Worldcon. Yes, the con suite was a joke. Even small cons do a better job than this. Only being open from 5pm to midnight was rediculous. I'd also add that there were some problems with the hotel we were in. First of all, we were put on a floor that normally requires you to put in your key in the slot on the elevator to access that floor. They were supposed to take that block off and so they didn't code our keys to access that floor, but they had forgotten to take the block off. When I went back to the room Saturday morning, I discovered the block was back on. No one had told the weekend shift that it was supposed to be off for the convention. Another thing was that on Sunday night, there was a rather pronounced odor on our floor. >That evening we geared up for the Sime~Gen Party. It turned out to be quite >a success, Yes, it was a lot of fun. Let's start planning next year's a little sooner. Well, although there were some problems with the con, overall it was fun. I hope the con suite at Baltimore will be more like what a con suite should be though. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Subject: Re: KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sime/Gen RPG on AOL wrote: > > In a message dated 97-09-08 15:06:22 EDT, zeor@xxxxxx.NET writes: > > << I just had a post to KlanaSime@xxxxxx.com returned, "pernament error, user > unknown". >> > > Alas, the character named K'lanaSime met an awful fate at the hands > (literally) of a Gen named Aleiaa (also sadly demised). What kind of Sime was K'lanaSime? From the name, I'd almost guess Klingon... Follow Your Bliss!! Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: FWD: Sound scientific theory! Someone sent this to me. I'm just sending it on. I'm not the one who came up with this. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- For those of you that have doubted my theories on How Fluorescent Bulbs Operate (AKA, The Absorption of Darkions) I now laugh in your face! That's why the ends of the bulbs turn dark when they "burn out"; they're full of darkions. For a complete explanation, and a justification of my earlier theories, read the following: -- The Dark Sucker Theory For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers. The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove that dark has mass and is heavier than light. First, the basis of the Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs suck dark. For example, take the Dark Sucker in the room you are in. There is much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The larger the Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark Suckers in the parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck dark than the ones in this room. So with all things, Dark Suckers don't last forever. Once they are full of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot on a full Dark Sucker. A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You can see that after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because it got in the way of the dark flowing into the candle. One of the disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their limited range. There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs can't handle all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage Unit. When the Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied or replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again. Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from the mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating Dark Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel into a solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a great amount of heat and therefore it's not wise to touch an operating candle. Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below the surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats at the top. The is why it is called light. Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you were to stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly opened the closet door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet. But since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet. Next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is a Dark Sucker. -- --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:50:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Sound scientific theory! In a message dated 97-09-09 15:34:50 EDT, ulrey@xxxxxx.COM writes: << For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. >> Another little-known (for good reason) "fact" is that computer chips and other electronics parts work because they are filled with "magic smoke". If this magic smoke is accidentally let out, the parts stop working. This is referred to "letting the magic smoke out". (It's true! Ask your local electronics technician) --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:07:15 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.li.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: Re: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Tony Zbaraschuk > Subject: Re: metatype > This applies even in "choice" situations (like the present tendency in > India and China to abort or murder female offspring because you want a > male.) When all those males grow up, there will be more of them than > women, so the ones who get to reproduce will be the ones who can offer > the best deal to the women, which will even out the male-bias factor. > (Or some folks will choose to _have_ female babies, since they see all > these excess men around ... and the balance swings back.) > > Of course, there can be a lot of human suffering involved -- the > mathematical laws that govern human demography don't _care_ about > individuals... but watch what happens in China over the next > half-century or so. Should be interesting. > It is already starting. Time ran a special issue on women around the world a year or two ago. I remember the sections on female infanticide. There is a Provence in China where the female infanticide was so bad, that only one in ten female infants survived the gentle mercy of there parents. Most (90%) of the males who are under 50 are in a forced life of bachelorhood, and their Provence is doomed. I sent that entire issue to a friend. I only wish I saved the article. Nova ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-08 13:09:43 EDT, you write: << And yes, Sime/Gen is a sort of "yin/yang" situation, but set at 90degrees to that axis. Sime~Gen is another "dimension" on the graph. So somewhere in mathematics we may find the term we're looking for. I wish I could draw this for you and post it on the web. I have new software that may be able to do it -- if I COULD. >> Hmmm .... I *was* emphasizing the more highly romantic transfer-mate concept as more equivalent to the +/- of electrical polarity ..... many species which are sexually dimorphic have unequal ratios of each (aren't whole generations of some amphibians female?) .... and even change the ratio to suit environmantal need... no need for S~G to be less adaptable.... Thinking of S~G ness as another axis is a very helpful analogy .... it's another genetically based physical trait category, like gender, but seperate.... A good reminder that symmetry in function isn't the same thing as parity in numbers.... PMN, who notes there isn't much antimatter lying around.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:01:20 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Found Nova Serafino JL Writes: << JL here: Anyone on this List planning to go to Darkover who wants to participate in the Sime~Gen filking let Donell know directly (Donell isn't on the Listserve yet). Donell - does Kerry have any more of the SONGBOOK in stock? I don't have any here. >> Oh, this sounds like more and more fun! As a musician (I play guitar, recorder and piano, plus tambourine, drums, shaker eggs and anything else percussive I can get my hands on :-) I would Love to be able to "jam" with Tecton Minstrels. Hope you find those songbooks! (Hope whereever and whenever this thing is being held -- sorry, haven't had time to check the webring yet -- that I can attend one day!) Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-09 07:01:01 EDT, you write: << Let's try the word 'lar'. >> > > In the US that'd be pronounced "lehr" or "lair" rather than "lahr" .... but > it works either way.... > > PMN : ) >> Okay, count me in: I give my wholehearted vote for "lar" as the term to describe the distinction between Simedness and Genedness. (:-) But I have just one final suggestion: to me, the phonetic spelling, "lehr" looks even more Simelan than "Lar". Howzabout that as the final term? And here's the justification for that spelling: in Ann McCaffery's Dragon books, the word "Agenothree" is used to describe the substance that produces fire for the flamethrowers. We later learn that "agenothree" is the phonetic spelling for the chemical compound "HNOsub3", which came with the original, technically advanced spacefarers who settled the planet. It makes sense to me that a word like "Polarity" could have become bastardized (er, is that the right term???) along the way, began to be spelled the way it actually sounds -- pohlehr, or, hmmm, polehratee or, well -- you get the picture, despite my really bad examples! "Lehry": looks Simelan to me -- how does the rest of the group feel? What does it take to make some version of this -- lar, lehr, whatever -- official, hmm, Jacqueline? I'm ready to vote! Suzanne :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 02:01:16 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: BACK: Sime Center Confidentiality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A question I came up with in IRC. Do Sime Centers practice cofidentiality the way doctors do nowadays? Could the Police trace a criminal but watching transfer records? I mean for ordinary crimes not related to Sime~Gen relations. Or would those be kept closed except in extreme cases? After all, if a sime is afraid to go to a SC that means he is much more likely to turn Distect or kill. If SC records are protected, then wanted Simes will hopefully get normal transfers instead of going to extralegal transfers. This is a bit like the whole issue of needle exchanges for drug addicts. Or a reporter's right to protect her sources. Could SC records be used for alibis? "Your honor, these records clearly show that my client was getting transfer across town at the time of the crime. Wild Killer Gen aka Smiling Ed aka "The telecommander" [ Do NOT try to apprehend. Contact the nearest Tecton Marshall's Office ] -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:11:20 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: metatype MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne George wrote: > > Okay, count me in: I give my wholehearted vote for "lar" as the term to > describe the distinction between Simedness and Genedness. (:-) But I have > just one final suggestion: to me, the phonetic spelling, "lehr" looks even > more Simelan than "Lar". Howzabout that as the final term? Phonetic for whom? :) As I mentioned in another message, I'd pronounce it 'lar' (not laar, lahr or lehr) with a short 'a'. But then, Nivet territory -is- in the Ancient USA, so I guess that as we're using Nivet territory simelan in the series, we go for the Ancient US pronunciation. But I'll still pronounce it with a short 'a'. Just because I'm stubborn. Jenn V. (Now here's a story. Speaking Simelan with a very different accent. Some words are -very- close.. what if my shedoni sounds like your shidoni?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:22:45 +1100 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: qamh Subject: Magic smoke inthe dark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-09-09 15:34:50 EDT, ulrey@xxxxxx.COM writes: << For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. >> Another little-known (for good reason) "fact" is that computer chips and other electronics parts work because they are filled with "magic smoke". If this magic smoke is accidentally let out, the parts stop working. This is referred to "letting the magic smoke out". (It's true! Ask your local electronics technician) --Kaas So! If you let out magic smoke in a dark room would anybody notice? tee hee. Zoe. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 03:54:49 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: That ~!@xxxxxx.$%^&* Apostrophe In a message dated 97-09-07 15:49:50 EDT, you write: << > In a major magazine I saw slay-slayed instead of slain.... Whatever happened to "slew" ? :) >> Of course verbs have more than two parts.... I was thinking of the.... uh ... participle (sorry if misspelled....) you know, the verb form for compund past tense structures .... can be an adjective.... "I have slain the mighty." "I slew the sheriff" "The nation mourns its slain leaders." PMN : ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:42:31 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: BACK: Sime Center Confidentiality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >A question I came up with in IRC. > >Do Sime Centers practice cofidentiality the way doctors do nowadays? > Yes, they do. One bit of unpublished background for the Den and Rital stories (because it happened before CHANGE begins) is that Reverend Sinth tried to get the Sime Center to agree to notify the parents of all "minors" who donated...preferably through some central agency, so he could get his hands on the list and harass those parents who somehow failed to see donating as a sign of moral depravity. The effort failed when the Tecton pointed out that in Sime Territory (including the Sime Center in Clear Springs), ALL Gens were by definition legal adults, regardless of natal age, and the medical/donation records of adults couldn't be released without that adult's consent. They did offer to notify the parents of any teen who volunteered to sign a permission slip (making it clear this would be presented as fully optional), but that didn't satisfy Sinth's group at all. The idea that "children" could donate without their parents' knowledge or consent, and earn a generous amount of untracable cash by doing so, was an early rallying point for Sinth's budding organization--hence "Save Our Kids". It was the knowledge of this confidentiality for donors which was responsible for Rob Lifton's first donation. He'd gone to the Sime Center, and made a big point about telling them that nobody knew he was there, in hopes of tricking them into throwing him into the basement Secret Pen in which Sinth claimed the Sime Center imprisoned unwary donors for kills. (He'd left a note so he could be rescued later, and the Secret Pen exposed.) When Rob found out that Rital had no intention of doing anything but take his field down, he made an emergency decision that going through with the donation--and thus swearing the Sime Center to silence about his presence--was likely to be less unpleasant than having them complain to his mother that he'd made not one, but TWO unauthorized visits to the Sime Center in the course of a week. The poor kid changed his mind about the time Rital's first tentacle touched him, but by then it was too late... Gotta run; two more tons of grapes to press today. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:46:50 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Worldcon JacquelineL writes: << Among them were strawberries with chocolate sauce for the gens >> Okay, that does it! Clearly, I'm a Gen -- and if This is the kind of food you stir up at conventions, then I'll just have to re-double my efforts to get some Dough and attend! Strawberries and chocolate. . . bestill, my heart, now I **Know** I'm amongst Kindred Spirits! Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:51:18 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Worldcon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Suzanne George wrote: > > JacquelineL writes: > > << Among them were strawberries with chocolate sauce for the gens >> > > Okay, that does it! Clearly, I'm a Gen -- and if This is the kind of food > you stir up at conventions, then I'll just have to re-double my efforts to > get some Dough and attend! Strawberries and chocolate. . . bestill, my > heart, now I **Know** I'm amongst Kindred Spirits! > > Suzanne .... if anyone wants to come to Australia, I grow strawberries in a pot on my front porch, and have some dark chocolate in the fridge.. a little time in the microwave for the chocolate, pick some fresh strawberries, and we can sit in the garden and dip strawberries in just-melting chocolate and discuss the RPG I'm struggling not to procrastinate over.... Jenn V. (Gen. Definately.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:39:14 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Worldcon Suzanne George wrote: >JacquelineL wrote: > ><< Among them were strawberries with chocolate sauce for the gens >> >Okay, that does it! Clearly, I'm a Gen -- and if This is the kind of food >you stir up at conventions, then I'll just have to re-double my efforts to >get some Dough and attend! Strawberries and chocolate. . . bestill, my >heart, now I **Know** I'm amongst Kindred Spirits! > >Suzanne > I guess if we have a party next year, we'll definitely need to plan to have that. BTW, Suzanne, what part of the country are you in? Duckon, in Chicago, always has had chocolate in their con suite. I don't remember if they had strawberries last year or not. Of course, chocolate is one of the basic fannish food groups. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:03:08 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Announcing the publication of _The Complete Lojban Language_ Comments: To: Darkover Lovers , Unicode Discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sending this advertisement only to the mailing lists that I participate in, because I think it may be of interest to some of the other participants. I have written and published a book about Lojban, an artificial language, which may be of interest to list members who are interested in artificial languages (like Simelan or casta). The title is _The Complete Lojban Language_. I receive no money from the sales of this book; your money goes to pay printing costs on this and future Lojban books. For more information: see the Lojban web site at http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban , or email me at , or write to: The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA or call (703) 385-0273 (U.S) or +1 703 385 0273 (international). -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:14:18 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Tan: Bujold Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Zbaraschuk wrote: > > Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > > I have often wondered what our world would be like if there were a > > simple and easily gotten drug which guaranteed that a child would be male. > > I think people in most societies, especially Arab, Chinese, Indian, > > etc. want male children so an imbalance would quickly happen. People are > > not rational enough to think 20 years down the road to when all those > > males (or most of them) will want to have mates. So in a generation males > > would outnumber females by a huge margin. I think there is already an imbalence, in China at least, because of the technology to see the sex of the baby before birth. > Sure. For one generation. But where are all those men finding mates? > > Answer: from the groups that thought that having women is a good idea. > So _those_ groups will have better reproductive rates than the ones > that think that having all sons is wonderful. In the long run, the > situation pushes itself back into balance. > > (We can see this happening in Lois McMaster Bujold's later Vorkosigan > books, notably MIRROR DANCE and MEMORY, where it's a minor background > plot point.) This was exactly what I thought of when I saw Hannah's email! Has anyone read _Dreamweaver's Dilemma_ by Bujold? [cut L. Neil Smith section] > Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Worldcon << I guess if we have a party next year, we'll definitely need to plan to have that. BTW, Suzanne, what part of the country are you in? Duckon, in Chicago, always has had chocolate in their con suite. I don't remember if they had strawberries last year or not. Of course, chocolate is one of the basic fannish food groups. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com >> I think one of the other fannish basic food groups is Chineese food! One of the survival groups of any SF con. Always scope things out to find out if it's within walking distance or if they deliver. Even cold, it's edible. Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Tan: Bujold In-Reply-To: <341737DA.2BBB@xxxxxx.edu> from "JoAnn Lee" at Sep 10, 97 05:14:18 pm Content-Type: text > I think there is already an imbalence, in China at least, because of the > technology to see the sex of the baby before birth. As I understand it, India is doing selective abortions on females, and the Chinese are doing that and female infanticide. (Just a minor corrective note.) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Hop, Skip, and a Jump -- Literacy? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just reread "Hop, Skip, and a Jump"... Gens don't read?? (the Captian doesn't use 'scribbles'..) JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:51:08 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: metatype In a message dated 97-09-10 02:31:12 EDT, Segueway@xxxxxx.COM writes: << "Polarity" could have become bastardized (er, is that the right term???) along the way, began to be spelled the way it actually sounds -- pohlehr, or, hmmm, polehratee or, well -- you get the picture, despite my really bad examples! "Lehry": >> There are also, of course, the "larity", "lerity" and "laridy" variations (as in "we do not discriminate on the basis of gender, leridy, or whether the person is employed by the Tecton") --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:59:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Found Nova Serafino In a message dated 97-09-10 00:26:57 EDT, you write: << Oh, this sounds like more and more fun! As a musician (I play guitar, recorder and piano, plus tambourine, drums, shaker eggs and anything else percussive I can get my hands on :-) I would Love to be able to "jam" with Tecton Minstrels. Hope you find those songbooks! (Hope whereever and whenever this thing is being held -- sorry, haven't had time to check the webring yet -- that I can attend one day!) >> Live jamming has never been my strong suit but I would be able to contribute the lyrics and sheet music for "I'm a Farris Farris Farris" which is a silly song inspired by "I'm My Own GrandPa". Don't even ASK how late at night it was when I wrote it. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:07:30 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Found Nova Serafino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << Oh, this sounds like more and more fun! As a musician (I play guitar, > recorder and piano, plus tambourine, drums, shaker eggs and anything else > percussive I can get my hands on :-) I would Love to be able to "jam" with > Tecton Minstrels. Hope you find those songbooks! (Hope whereever and > whenever this thing is being held -- sorry, haven't had time to check the > webring yet -- that I can attend one day!) > >> Here's my wish. That the RPG brings in enough cash for one return flight to the states.. well, for my share to be one return flight to the states.. and a con entrance fee. And a little bit for chinese food. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:16:24 +1100 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: qamh Subject: can't find Rimon Farris library site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listfolk, I have been trying to get to the Rimon Farris Library and all i get is Darksipher (?) no matter what i try or how i skip or even if i click directly on to the site i keep getting Darksipher. Help. What can i do????????? Zoe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Press Release to Distribute Widely Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Writers Deserve Royalties" Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc. Press Release - September 8, 1997 In a moved endorsed by Lucasfilm, owner of the Star Wars franchise, Bantam Books recently decided to alter its standard contract for Star Wars novels. The original terms, an advance plus a 2% royalty, were dropped in favor of a flat fee. Michael Capobianco, President of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc. (SFWA), a writers' advocacy organization founded in 1965, describes the new contract as being extremely regressive in its treatment of writers. "Bantam will be setting a very dangerous precedent," Capobianco said. In a letter to Bantam President Irwyn Applebaum protesting the decision, Capobianco described the new contract as "disastrous" and concluded, "If Bantam persists in its present course, we will inform our membership and all interested parties that these contracts do not meet professional standards. We will also be obliged to oppose the flat fee scheme by negative publicity and direct appeals to Lucasfilm." The letter was co-signed by nearly all the past SFWA Presidents, which includes many of the major names in the field of science fiction. Bantam has indicated that it is happy with the new contract and has no interest in changing it. A number of current Star Wars writers whose work has appeared on the New York Times Bestsellers list have indicated that they would not agree to write further novels under the new contract. These include Kevin J. Anderson, author of the Jedi Academy trilogy, A.C. Crispin, author of the Han Solo trilogy, Barbara Hambly, author of two hardcover Star Wars bestsellers, Hugo and Nebula award winner Vonda N. McIntyre, author of -The Crystal Star-, Rebecca Moesta, author of the Young Jedi Knights books, and Steve Perry, author of the hardcover besteller -Shadows of the Empire.- Members of SFWA conducted extensive discussions concerning the situation at the recent World Science Fiction Convention, held over Labor Day weekend in San Antonio, Texas. Among SFWA's current plans are a massive publicity campaign to alert Star Wars fans to Bantam's new policy. The slogan "Writers Deserve Royalties" was chosen to reflect the core issue at stake. "I'm quite sure that George Lucas is not aware of this new contract. He has always been a strong advocate for the rights of creative people," Capobianco said. For additional information, contract Michael Capobianco at (301) 870-9181, or e-mail m.capobianco@xxxxxx.com Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:59:35 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: Re: Hop, Skip, and a Jump -- Literacy? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I just reread "Hop, Skip, and a Jump"... Gens don't read?? (the Captian >doesn't use 'scribbles'..) > >JoAnn I interpreted that as that particular Gen didn't read * Simelan. * Wild Killer Gen who doesn't read French. -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:30:02 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: NEWS: The Movie - A Chuckle My agent just called me with an update on the progress of the movie. She told me that she had called up a very, very big production company (we are still only calling up the really big ones) and was told that they don't accept cold calls. Anyway, my agent does not ever accept this type of an answer and convinced the secretary to let her leave a voice mail for one of the development people. The Secretary did and at the end of the message the Audex said to punch a certain number. Well, my agent said that she probably punched the wrong number because all of a sudden she was talking to the president and CEO of the company. Being quick, my agent and he were soon shmoozing and laughing together. Then she made her pitch and not only got him to beg to look at "The Need" but at a few other of the movies she is representing. We are getting immediate attention and at such levels it is really phenomenal. My agent even got a request for the script from someone she had not spoken to personally so the word is getting out. The two company deal is still being discussed. But never fear, all of these things take a great deal of time and then it's "hurry up, we needed it a week ago." Anyway, again, thank you for all of your good wishes, prayers, offerings, and thoughts. They are opening doors for us. Readya, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Press Release to Distribute Widely More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let alone sold. They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical value, again, before the work was sold. If anybody who lives in LA has details could you please send them to me. Readya, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: BACK: Sime Center Confidentiality Interesting message by Mary Lou. I love the way the Den and Rital stories reflect social conflicts occurring in our own country at present. Real-world analogy is, of course, the confidential dispensing of birth control and providing of abortions to minors, with the attempt to pass parental-notification laws. The premise behind the confidentiality rules seems to be that pregnancy in itself makes a person an adult, for some purposes at least (like establishing as a Gen). I can see both sides -- why should a girl be able to get an abortion without parental permission, when she can't get other kinds of medical treatment on her own -- or in some jurisdictions, even get her ears pierced? OTOH, when a teenager myself, I would have been outraged at the notion that my parents had legal control over my reproductive functions (which they probably did when I was a teen in the 60s). As a parent, I would certainly want to know (if I had a daughter, which I don't), yet I don't think legal force is the right way to "bring families together" -- esp. since many of the girls who don't want to consult their parents may have excellent reasons for not doing so. To me, the right to privacy is the primary right that underlies all others, so I'm highly suspicious of any legislation that erodes it. Looking forward eagerly to the next story about E. (I can't remember how to spell her name) as soon as Mary Lou has time for it. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:47:16 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Men vs. Women on music Comments: To: cormo@xxxxxx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This article was posted to the Led Zeppelin miling list because of the reference to the use of Zeppelin music. However, I thought you might be interested in it for the different reactions from men and women. Jean > >Men More Likely to Play Music Loud > 2:15 p.m. EDT (1815 GMT) September 10, 1997 > > NEW YORK ? Men are more likely than women to play rock music > loud, whether or not they really like it, suggests a study from Ohio > University. > > The findings ? from a study in college students ? raise the > possibility that external circumstances, such as peer expectations > and a need to test limits may influence the music volume that young > men choose more than their own preference. > > Dr. Donald Fucci, a professor of speech and hearing at Ohio > University in Athens, Ohio, led a study in which 250 college > students were asked to rate their preference for rock music as high, > moderate, or low. Those who rated it "high'' or "low'' were then > asked to listen to rock music through earphones played at a range of > nine volumes over 10 seconds. > > "I'd give... 10 seconds of a signal (in this case the rock song > "Heartbreaker'' by Led Zeppelin) and then (have the study subject) > turn around and give me a number (one to nine) that matches that > level,'' Fucci explains. > > "Women who said they hated rock music always would give you > high numbers, indicating it's too loud. But women who liked it > would always give low numbers ? meaning, 'This is fine, I like it; > it's a two.' But in the case of the men, you couldn't find a > consistency. They gave you the same numbers whether they > expressed extreme dislike for rock music or extreme like.'' > > "The only inferences that I deduced were that men, in the case of > preferences for loudness, work differently than women, and that > women seem to base their interpretations on what they felt about > the stimulus involved,'' Fucci says. "Men, on the other hand, had a > feeling, but it did not relate to their actual performance on their > loudness scaling.'' > > "I think women are more attuned to their intuitions,'' he adds. > "When a woman has a feeling about something, that will relate to > how they react to it. Men, on the other hand, are a little looser > there. They could have a feeling toward something but it won't > necessarily dictate how they'll react to it.'' > > How does the researcher interpret that male response? ''Maybe > there's peer pressure involved, I really don't know. When you look > at these cars that vibrate from loud music, how many women do > you see driving those cars? They're all men. There could be > something stereotyped going on ? 'It's powerful, strong, I can take > it' attitude, which I don't think women buy into,'' he says. > > Fucci says studies show that men are more prone to a > sensori-neural hearing loss than women, but he also insists that the > issue is not that simple. "Men hunt, run high-level machinery... guys > do a lot of different things girls don't do,'' he says. > > Still, Fucci acknowledges the importance of getting the word out to > young people about hearing loss from exposure to loud sounds. He > says prolonged exposure to sounds above 70 to 90 decibels ? like > that from power lawnmowers ? could result in permanent hearing > loss. > > "Clearly, there is a message we need to get to kids at an early age,'' > he says. "Telling kids, whether they are males or females, not to > listen to rock music they enjoy is counterproductive. We need to > teach them to listen to all types of music at safe levels.'' > > > Jean Lorrah, A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu. If no response in 72 hours, try Jean1@xxxxxx.com. Visit my website, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ (I will be inaccessible by any e-mail October 10-12, 1997.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Nanoguitar! Comments: cc: cormo@xxxxxx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Weird stuff coming in on the Led Zeppelin list today! It's so rare that there would be anything there to interest you, and today here's the second post I thought you'd enjoy. Jean >This just in from ABC News: > >Scientists at Cornell University have built a guitar so small it could fit >inside a single human blood cell. > >The 'nanoguitar' as its creators call it, could actually be used to strum a >tune---but only by someone with really small fingers. Each of its six >strings is only about 100 atoms wide, more than 2,000 times smaller than a >human hair. > >It takes something called an 'atomic force microdcope' to pluck its strings, >but they resonate like a real guitar, according to Harold Graighead, >professor of applied and engineering physics at Cornell. > >End quote from ABC! > >Mmmmm! I wonder if there's a doubleneck in the works...... > >===Kathy=== Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: GOSS:JL's Dental Black Hole -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: I'm about to download 3 days of backed up email before the novacaine wears off (again). He put so much my eyeballs feel numb. The specialist didn't make much more progress than my regular dentist on this visit and I have another appointment in 2 weeks. This is going to be a long job. It's late today, and I know I won't have a chance to read all your great Listposts. I just wanted to let you know I'm alive and probably won't download and read email until maybe Monday. Sunday will be catchup on more stuff that's backed up during all this. Meanwhile, I've been wondering if something as sophisticated as the piano could survive the collapse of civilization. It's definitely a Gen instrument -- but would probably blend well with the shiltpron. In the dentist's office I heard the Johnny Nash recording of "I Can See Clearly Now" (one of my favorite songs) and realized for the first time that I couldn't identify the instruments. I figured the dominant (maybe only) instrument backing his voice was a synthesizer very artfully arranged and beautifully played. It suddenly occurred to me what that song would sound like backed by shiltpron equally artfully arranged and played. Now I wonder what the shitpron might add to the experience of "Waiting Room Fidgets". There was a stack of magazines and NOTHING to read. Not one issue of PC Mag, or INTERNET, or BYTE or KIPLINGERS or even BUSINESS WEEK. Shiltpron music would have been welcome. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:55:07 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Nanoguitar picture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's a picture of the nanoguitar at the following URL: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~brd/nanoguitar/ Take a look--it looks like a cross between a guitar and a shiltpron. The strings are recessed! This thing would have to be played by a nanoSime. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:45:57 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: GOSS:JL's Dental Black Hole In a message dated 97-09-11 16:58:26 EDT, you write: << I'm about to download 3 days of backed up email before the novacaine wears off (again). He put so much my eyeballs feel numb. The specialist didn't make much more progress than my regular dentist on this visit and I have another appointment in 2 weeks. This is going to be a long job. It's la >> hope you get to feeling better soon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: NEWS: The Movie - A Chuckle On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:30:02 -0400 Anne Pinzow writes: >My agent just called me with an update on the progress of the movie. >She >told me that she had called up a very, very big production company (we >are >still only calling up the really big ones) and was told that they >don't >accept cold calls. Anyway, my agent does not ever accept this type of >an >answer and convinced the secretary to let her leave a voice mail for >one of >the development people. The Secretary did and at the end of the >message the >Audex said to punch a certain number. Well, my agent said that she >probably >punched the wrong number because all of a sudden she was talking to >the >president and CEO of the company. Being quick, my agent and he were >soon >shmoozing and laughing together. Then she made her pitch and not only >got >him to beg to look at "The Need" but at a few other of the movies she >is >representing. > >We are getting immediate attention and at such levels it is really >phenomenal. My agent even got a request for the script from someone >she had >not spoken to personally so the word is getting out. > >The two company deal is still being discussed. But never fear, all of >these >things take a great deal of time and then it's "hurry up, we needed it >a week >ago." > >Anyway, again, thank you for all of your good wishes, prayers, >offerings, and >thoughts. They are opening doors for us. > >Readya, >Anne > That's great news! Jacqurlyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 07:58:07 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mike Giroux Organization: Icon CMT Corp. Subject: Re: Press Release to Distribute Widely MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told > that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly > screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have > produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed > over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let > alone sold. > > They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical > value, again, before the work was sold. > > If anybody who lives in LA has details could you please send them to me. > > Readya, > Anne Well, I live in New Jersey, but the power of the web surpasses these minor geographic limitations :) Actually, I read the "Washed-Update" at www.bulmash.com, and he posted this link in his newsletter last week. http://www.wga.org/pr/0697/hometax.html is a Writer's Guild protest letter; apparently, implementation has now been "delayed for further review". -- Mike Giroux mgiroux@xxxxxx.com (work) rmgiroux@xxxxxx.att.net (home) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:52:41 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mark Silverstein Subject: LA Tax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>>Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:38:28 -0400 From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Press Release to Distribute Widely More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let alone sold. They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical value, again, before the work was sold. If anybody who lives in LA has details could you please send them to me.<<< I am in NY, and have not really followed this story, but what I heard started as something of a voning point. Los Angeles passed a law that writers who work at home must register and obtain a license for having a home office. How the license fee translates into the numbers Anne is mentioning, I don't know. I haven't seen mention of this issue for a week or so, but if I come accross another report, I'll pay a little more attention. Mark silverstein@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: FWD: Jokes Folks Here are a couple of jokes someone sent me. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- The Tobacco Settlements are a huge complicated deal, so this should help answer some questions about the settlements going on around the country. (For those of you outside the United States, nearly all of the 50 states have filed law suits against the makers of cigarettes to recover health related costs.) This was contributed by Jacob Giles, Atlanta, GA, written by Dave Barry. Q: Could you please explain the recent historic tobacco settlement? A: Sure! Basically, the tobacco industry has admitted that it is killing people by the millions, and has agreed that from now on it will do this under the strict supervision of the federal government. Q: Will there be monetary damages assessed? A: Yes. To compensate for the immense suffering caused by its products, the tobacco industry will pay huge sums of money to the group most directly affected. Q: Lawyers? A: Yes. Q: Will the federal government also receive large quantities of money? A: Of course. Q: How will the tobacco industry obtain this money? A: By selling more tobacco products. Q: What if consumers stop buying tobacco products? A: That would be very bad. That would mess up the economics of the whole thing. The government would probably have to set up an emergency task force to figure out ways to get people smoking again in order to finance the historic tobacco settlement. Q: If the government really wants people to stop smoking, how come it doesn't just make cigarettes illegal? A: Because people would smoke them anyway. Q: Then how come the government makes crack cocaine illegal? A: That is an unfair comparison. The tobacco industry is merely selling a deadly product; the crack cocaine industry is guilty of something far far worse. Q: Failure to make large political donations?? A: Yes. Q: Many people started smoking because they watched classic movies in which glamorous Hollywood stars were always inhaling and exhaling vast clouds of smoke and looking totally cool. What will be done to correct this under the historic tobacco settlement? A: By 1998, all classic movies will be digitally reprocessed by special Food and Drug Administration computers so that - to cite one example - in Casablanca, when Humphrey Bogart makes his dramatic final speech to Ingrid Bergman, he will have the voice of Rocky the Flying Squirrel. Q: Whose voice will the late John Wayne have? A: The late Lucille Ball's. Q: What will happen to all the tobacco institute scientists, who, despite decades of dedicated research, were never able to find a single shred of evidence proving that cigarettes cause cancer? A: At the request of the White House, they will be reassigned to the Whitewater investigation. Q: Speaking of administration scandals, if President Clinton actually winds up in court over this Paula Jones thing, what steps will be taken to prevent the trial from turning into a grotesque and demeaning pubic spectacle? A: Mr. Clinton's face will be covered at all times by an electronically superimposed dark blob, underneath which will be an electronic label identifying him only as "A United States President." Q: How will the historic tobacco settlement affect the aliens whose spaceship crashed near Roswell, N.M. in 1947, and whose bodies are now being kept in top-secret government freezers? A: Millions of dollars will be paid to their lawyers. Q: I guess that covers it! Thanks! Smoke? A: I have my own. A woman decides that she's had it with trying to find a decent man in a bar. So she takes out an ad in the paper that says she is seeking a mate who is loyal, rich and a good lover. After a few days, her doorbell rings. She opens the door and sees a man in a wheelchair with no arms and no legs. He says, "I'm here about your ad." Momentarily taken aback, she says, "Well, how do I know you're loyal?" "Well, I saved my platoon from the VC in 'Nam. That's where I lost my arms and legs," he replies. "Well, how do I know you're rich?" she inquires. "I make over $3 million a year. I have my own software company. You can look at my bank statement," he continues. Looking him over in his wheelchair, she demands, "Well, how do I know you're a good lover?" He shrugs, "I rang the doorbell, didn't I?" --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Techie terms--Fwd. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Do you know all of those computer terms, acronyms and abreviations? Well, you can surely increase your vocabulary at Whatis.com. Whatis.com is the place to look up all of those words and concepts you have heard about but were afraid to ask... This site is truly FANTASTIC for boning up on those strange computer terms. http://www.whatis.com/ SUNNY Chandler, Arizona Where the web pages load FASTer... Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:06:39 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.li.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: Re: Press Release to Distribute Widely MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Anne Pinzow > More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told > that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly > screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have > produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed > over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let > alone sold. > They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical > value, again, before the work was sold. That's insane. That would mean that people who paint, play music or do anything would be subject to tax. I think it would cause a riot, and be totally unenforceable. Nova ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Agent put out of AAR I know Natasha represents other genres beside romance(including children)and thought any writers on this list might like this.... >From PW Daily, from yesterday: > Agent Natasha Kern Expelled from AAR > > The board of directors of the Association of Authors' Representatives > is expelling Portland, Ore., literary agent Natasha Kern from its > membership. The action--a rare and most serious sanction for the > organization--comes after AAR's ethics committee looked into charges > about misconduct surrounding the May 19 auction of Bruce > Fergusson's thriller The Piper's Sons, first reported by PW, in which > Dutton paid a reported $500,000 advance for this and another > Fergusson book, only to discover afterwards it was the only > participant in what it thought was a heated auction. The ethics > committee has determined Kern violated the AAR's Canon of Ethics > by making misleading and deceptive statements to a publisher. > Ironically, the publisher later renegotiated a $100,000, one-book deal > to keep the book. Watch for a full report in PW's September 15 > issue.--Judy Quinn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 21:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Press Release to Distribute Widely Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:06 PM 9/12/97 -0400, Nova wrote: >> From: Anne Pinzow >> More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told >> that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly >> screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have >> produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed >> over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let >> alone sold. >> They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical >> value, again, before the work was sold. > >That's insane. That would mean that people who paint, play music or do >anything would be subject to tax. I think it would cause a riot, and be >totally unenforceable. It probably is. Philadelphia has such a law on its books. I have a friend who moved there about ten years ago, and was horrified to find out that if she was to continue as a freelance writer (she sells about two-three articles or stories in an average year), she would have to purchase a license for a home business. The problem was...there was no mechanism in place for her to do so! After months of letters and phone calls and e-mail and trying City Hall in person, she finally gave up. Years have passed, she has continued to sell at a slow but steady pace (including articles to local newspapers and magazines), and no one has ever come after her. I suppose she might be in trouble if she ever became a household name. In LA, though, I imagine the city will simply go after all local members of the Screen Writers Guild--so everyone will be safe until the sale that gets them their union card. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:06:22 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Found Nova Serafino Kaas: << Live jamming has never been my strong suit but I would be able to contribute the lyrics and sheet music for "I'm a Farris Farris Farris" which is a silly song inspired by "I'm My Own GrandPa". Don't even ASK how late at night it was when I wrote it. >> ;-) The question is: how late at night does it have to be for you to **perform** it?? :-D Suzanne P.S. er, I've never heard the song "I'm My Own GrandPa": sounds like a summation of some of Heinlein's Metheselah books. (Can't remember the character's name.) Who does the song? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:47:12 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Worldcon JennV writes: << ..... if anyone wants to come to Australia, I grow strawberries in a pot on my front porch, and have some dark chocolate in the fridge.. >> Would Love to come to Australia! Er. . . see previous Post regarding:Lack of Money! ;-) But thanks for the invite. . . :-) Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:50:00 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Worldcon Larry writes: << I guess if we have a party next year, we'll definitely need to plan to have that. BTW, Suzanne, what part of the country are you in? Duckon, in Chicago, always has had chocolate in their con suite. I don't remember if they had strawberries last year or not. Of course, chocolate is one of the basic fannish food groups. >> I live on the East Coast, just north of Boston. On a totally different topic: there was a convention recently in Boston: Vision Con '97. I would have reported on it, but I was only able to attend one day, it turned out to be rather small, and I spent **that** day working my tailfeather's off volunteering in the hopes of getting an autograph for Free. The good news: I got some good pictures of Claudia Christian (Ivanova on Babylon 5, for B5 fans), and Yes, I managed to get my autograph: from William Shatner! (Hey, it worked for me! :-D) Live Long . . . Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Too cheap Internet access! Comments: To: cormo@xxxxxx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Internet Access Via Cable Hits Industry Wall by Brian McWilliams, PC World News Radio September 12, 1997 A company hoping to establish cable TV as a high-performance Web surfing platform appears to be running into industry inertia. Nearly a year ago, WorldGate Communications began testing a new service to bring 100-kbps per second high-speed Internet connections into homes using existing cable-converter boxes and TV sets. All the heavy lifting and processing would be done in a cable company's central offices. WorldGate predicted last fall that its Internet TV Over Cable technology would be deployed broadly by cable operators this summer, and it has recently lined up big financial backing from companies including Citicorp and Motorola. But yesterday the company admitted it's just beginning to roll out the service in its first test markets in suburban Philadelphia and St. Louis. Since the service requires no new hardware for consumers and will be priced around $5 per month, WorldGate is confident it will have big appeal to the 85 million homes not connected to the Internet today. But analysts say that while the company may be a visionary in how to bring the Internet to the masses, it's having trouble getting cable operators to sign on. Virginia Brooks of Aberdeen Research says the cable industry lags far behind datacom and telecom firms in the vision department. "The cable guys have the least savvy, I think, about doing this sort of information exchange," says Brooks. "In part it's because all they've had to do was download stuff to your house. It's a one-way street for them--or it has been up until now. All of a sudden they're having to deal with when it's two-way." Some observers say WorldGate's service poses a big threat to WebTVs and PCs using cable modems. Gary Arlen, of Arlen Communications, disagrees. He thinks cable operators don't like the WorldGate business model, which involves splitting the $5-per-home fee. "Cable operators are trying to figure out which of the Internet strategies they should pursue," he explains. "Cable Labs, on the one hand, is trying to use what they call the Golden Modem, a standardized cable broadband modem. If that's $40 a month, that's the Holy Grail compared to what the cable operator will get out of the five bucks a month WorldGate is going to charge. Cable operators, when they look at business models, start to think, 'Where's the cash cow in this?'" But WorldGate CEO Hal Krisberg says the economics of his service are sound for both consumers and cable companies because they don't have to add any additional equipment like typical Internet service providers do. "Those telephone modem banks cost money, and the telephone lines cost money--all that infrastructure costs money," he points out. "But by using the cable, the cable addressable platform, and the set-top converter that are already there, the access cost and the local phone charges go away. You don't tie up a phone line. The only cost to the cable operator is bulk use of a T-1 line backed to an Internet board." Krisberg says he expects a full-scale rollout of the service to begin in the first quarter of 1998. Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: New Version of Old Story Comments: cc: cormo@xxxxxx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The old urban legend surfaces again--this time via e-mail! Thought you might be interested in a new variation on a story that started around the turn of the century. It used to be set at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC. First it was Waldorf Salad, and later, the version many of you will remember, Waldorf Red Velvet Cake. Though this is technically spam, and I advise you _not_ to post it to other mailing lists, I am passing it on to this one because we are interested in things like urban legends--and also because it looks like a good recipe! Jean >My Dearest Friends, > >If you love to bake cookies, here is a twisted story and a very expensive >cookie recipe for you to try out. Have a good weekend. I'll be thinking >about you. > > >THIS IS TRUE--PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO >EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS....THIS IS REALLY >TERRIFIC. > >My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & > decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie >lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie." >{EDITORIAL COMMENT: Neiman's is a VERY EXPENSIVE department store in >the States}. It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the >recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I'm afraid not." > >Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she >said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it's a >great deal!" I said with approval, just add it to my tab. > >Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it >was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for >two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the >statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe - $250.00" That's outrageous!! > >I called Neiman's Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was >"two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by >any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. > >Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because >according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You >have already seen the recipe - we absolutely will not refund your money at >this point." I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in >Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the >State's Attorney General for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do >what you want, we don't give a crap, and we're not refunding your money." > >I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my >money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going >to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it >that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a >$250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus...for free. > >She replied, "I wish you wouldn't do this." I said, "Well, you should have >thought of that before you ripped me off," and slammed down the phone on >her. > >So here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can >possible think of. I paid $250 for this...I don't want Neiman-Marcus to >*ever* get another penny off of this recipe.... > > (Recipe may be halved) > > 2 cups butter > 4 cups flour > 2 tsp. soda > 2 cups sugar > ** 5 cups blended oatmeal > 24 oz. chocolate chips > 2 cups brown sugar > 1 tsp. salt > 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > 4 eggs > 2 tsp. baking powder > 2 tsp. vanilla > 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > >** Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. > Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; > mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. > Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and > place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. > > Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. > > Have fun!!! > > This is not a joke --- this is a true story. Ride free citizens > Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:41:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: New Version of Old Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC020.CD764D20" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC020.CD764D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to add that in the older version of the urban legend that I heard, the cookie recipe was tried: and it was terrible. I am curious if anyone has tried this one, and does it work? ---------- > From: Jean Lorrah > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: New Version of Old Story > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 8:34 AM > > The old urban legend surfaces again--this time via e-mail! Thought you > might be interested in a new variation on a story that started around the > turn of the century. It used to be set at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC. > First it was Waldorf Salad, and later, the version many of you will > remember, Waldorf Red Velvet Cake. > > Though this is technically spam, and I advise you _not_ to post it to other > mailing lists, I am passing it on to this one because we are interested in > things like urban legends--and also because it looks like a good recipe! Jean > > >My Dearest Friends, > > > >If you love to bake cookies, here is a twisted story and a very expensive > >cookie recipe for you to try out. Have a good weekend. I'll be thinking > >about you. > > > > > >THIS IS TRUE--PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO > >EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL ADDRESS....THIS IS REALLY > >TERRIFIC. > > > >My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & > > decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie > >lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie." > >{EDITORIAL COMMENT: Neiman's is a VERY EXPENSIVE department store in > >the States}. It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the > >recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I'm afraid not." > > > >Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she > >said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it's a > >great deal!" I said with approval, just add it to my tab. > > > >Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it > >was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for > >two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the > >statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe - $250.00" That's outrageous!! > > > >I called Neiman's Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was > >"two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by > >any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. > > > >Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because > >according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You > >have already seen the recipe - we absolutely will not refund your money at > >this point." I explained to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in > >Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the > >State's Attorney General for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do > >what you want, we don't give a crap, and we're not refunding your money." > > > >I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my > >money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going > >to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it > >that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a > >$250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus...for free. > > > >She replied, "I wish you wouldn't do this." I said, "Well, you should have > >thought of that before you ripped me off," and slammed down the phone on > >her. > > > >So here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can > >possible think of. I paid $250 for this...I don't want Neiman-Marcus to > >*ever* get another penny off of this recipe.... > > > > (Recipe may be halved) > > > > 2 cups butter > > 4 cups flour > > 2 tsp. soda > > 2 cups sugar > > ** 5 cups blended oatmeal > > 24 oz. chocolate chips > > 2 cups brown sugar > > 1 tsp. salt > > 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) > > 4 eggs > > 2 tsp. baking powder > > 2 tsp. vanilla > > 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) > > > >** Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder. > > Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; > > mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. > > Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and > > place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. > > > > Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. > > > > Have fun!!! > > > > This is not a joke --- this is a true story. Ride free citizens > > > Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ > **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC020.CD764D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'd like to add that in the older = version of the urban legend that I heard, the cookie recipe was tried: = and it was terrible.

I am curious if anyone has tried this one, = and does it work?

----------
> From: Jean Lorrah <a21711f@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: New Version of Old Story
> = Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 8:34 AM
>
> The old = urban legend surfaces again--this time via e-mail!  Thought = you
> might be interested in a new variation on a story that = started around the
> turn of the century.  It used to be set = at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in NYC.
> First it was Waldorf Salad, = and later, the version many of you will
> remember, Waldorf Red = Velvet Cake.
>
> Though this is technically spam, and I = advise you _not_ to post it to other
> mailing lists, I am passing = it on to this one because we are interested in
> things like urban = legends--and also because it looks like a good recipe! =  Jean
>
> >My Dearest Friends,
> >
> = >If you love to bake cookies, here is a twisted story and a very = expensive
> >cookie recipe for you to try out.  Have a = good weekend.  I'll be thinking
> >about you.
> = >
> >
> >THIS  IS  TRUE--PLEASE =  TAKE  THE TIME TO READ IT AND PLEASE SEND THIS TO
> = >EVERY SINGLE  PERSON  YOU KNOW WHO HAS AN E-MAIL = ADDRESS....THIS IS REALLY
> >TERRIFIC.
> >
> = >My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe = in Dallas &
> > decided to have a small dessert. =  Because both of us are such cookie
> >lovers, we decided = to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie."
> >{EDITORIAL = COMMENT: Neiman's  is  a  VERY  EXPENSIVE department = store in
> >the States}. It was so excellent that I asked if = they would give me the
> >recipe and the waitress said with a = small frown, "I'm afraid not."
> >
> >Well, = I said, would you let me buy the recipe?  With a cute smile, = she
> >said,  "Yes."  I asked how much, and = she responded, "Only two fifty, it's a
> >great = deal!"  I said with approval, just add it to my tab.
> = >
> >Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from = Neiman-Marcus and it
> >was $285.00.  I looked again and I = remembered I had only spent $9.95 for
> >two salads and about = $20.00 for a scarf.  As I glanced at the bottom of the
> = >statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe - $250.00"  That's = outrageous!!
> >
> >I called Neiman's Accounting Dept. = and told them the waitress said it was
> = >"two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred = and fifty dollars" by
> >any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of = the phrase.
> >
> >Neiman-Marcus refused to budge. =  They would not refund my money, because
> >according to = them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. =  You
> >have already seen the recipe - we absolutely will = not refund your money at
> >this point."  I explained = to her the criminal statues which govern fraud in
> >Texas, I = threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the
> = >State's Attorney General for engaging in fraud.  I was = basically told, "Do
> >what you want, we don't give a = crap, and we're not refunding your money."
> >
> = >I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any = of my
> >money back.  I just said, "Okay, you folks = got my $250, and now I'm going
> >to have $250.00 worth of = fun."  I told her that I was going to see to it
> = >that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account = has a
> >$250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus...for = free.
> >
> >She replied, "I wish you wouldn't do = this." I said, "Well, you should have
> >thought of = that before you ripped me off," and slammed down the phone = on
> >her.
> >
> >So here it is!!! =  Please, please, please pass it on to  everyone you = can
> >possible think of.  I paid $250 for this...I don't = want Neiman-Marcus to
> >*ever* get another penny off of this = recipe....
> >
> > =             (= Recipe may be halved)
> >
> > =             2= cups butter
> > =             4= cups flour
> > =             2= tsp. soda
> > =             2= cups sugar
> > =             *= * 5 cups blended oatmeal
> > =             2= 4 oz. chocolate chips
> > =             2= cups brown sugar
> > =             1= tsp. salt
> > =             1= 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated)
> > =             4= eggs
> > =             2= tsp. baking powder
> > =             2= tsp. vanilla
> > =             3= cups chopped nuts (your choice)
> >
> >** Measure = oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder.
> > =    Cream the butter and both sugars.  Add eggs and = vanilla;
> >    mix together  with flour, = oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda.
> > =    Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts.  Roll = into balls and
> >    place two inches apart on = a cookie sheet.
> >
> >    Bake for 10 = minutes at 375 degrees.  Makes 112 cookies.
> >
> = >     Have fun!!!
> >
> > =     This is not a joke --- this is a true story. =  Ride free citizens
> >
> Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx. (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.
> = http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/
> **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. = 10-12, 1997**

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC020.CD764D20-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:59:30 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: Men vs. Women on music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC023.589FFE80" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC023.589FFE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One point I would make in regard to the rock music issue, is that I am age 39, and am glad at least that the kids are still listening to rock music: how many my age, listened to the same kind of music our parents did? Do you think this indicates less of a generation gap, or just that rock music crosses the gap? P.S.: what kind of music do Simes listen to? Have they preserved any Ancient tunes? ---------- > From: Jean Lorrah > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: Men vs. Women on music > Date: Thursday, September 11, 1997 12:47 PM > > This article was posted to the Led Zeppelin miling list because of the > reference to the use of Zeppelin music. However, I thought you might be > interested in it for the different reactions from men and women. Jean > > > >Men More Likely to Play Music Loud > > 2:15 p.m. EDT (1815 GMT) September 10, 1997 > > > > NEW YORK ? Men are more likely than women to play rock music > > loud, whether or not they really like it, suggests a study from Ohio > > University. > > > > The findings ? from a study in college students ? raise the > > possibility that external circumstances, such as peer expectations > > and a need to test limits may influence the music volume that young > > men choose more than their own preference. > > > > Dr. Donald Fucci, a professor of speech and hearing at Ohio > > University in Athens, Ohio, led a study in which 250 college > > students were asked to rate their preference for rock music as high, > > moderate, or low. Those who rated it "high'' or "low'' were then > > asked to listen to rock music through earphones played at a range of > > nine volumes over 10 seconds. > > > > "I'd give... 10 seconds of a signal (in this case the rock song > > "Heartbreaker'' by Led Zeppelin) and then (have the study subject) > > turn around and give me a number (one to nine) that matches that > > level,'' Fucci explains. > > > > "Women who said they hated rock music always would give you > > high numbers, indicating it's too loud. But women who liked it > > would always give low numbers ? meaning, 'This is fine, I like it; > > it's a two.' But in the case of the men, you couldn't find a > > consistency. They gave you the same numbers whether they > > expressed extreme dislike for rock music or extreme like.'' > > > > "The only inferences that I deduced were that men, in the case of > > preferences for loudness, work differently than women, and that > > women seem to base their interpretations on what they felt about > > the stimulus involved,'' Fucci says. "Men, on the other hand, had a > > feeling, but it did not relate to their actual performance on their > > loudness scaling.'' > > > > "I think women are more attuned to their intuitions,'' he adds. > > "When a woman has a feeling about something, that will relate to > > how they react to it. Men, on the other hand, are a little looser > > there. They could have a feeling toward something but it won't > > necessarily dictate how they'll react to it.'' > > > > How does the researcher interpret that male response? ''Maybe > > there's peer pressure involved, I really don't know. When you look > > at these cars that vibrate from loud music, how many women do > > you see driving those cars? They're all men. There could be > > something stereotyped going on ? 'It's powerful, strong, I can take > > it' attitude, which I don't think women buy into,'' he says. > > > > Fucci says studies show that men are more prone to a > > sensori-neural hearing loss than women, but he also insists that the > > issue is not that simple. "Men hunt, run high-level machinery... guys > > do a lot of different things girls don't do,'' he says. > > > > Still, Fucci acknowledges the importance of getting the word out to > > young people about hearing loss from exposure to loud sounds. He > > says prolonged exposure to sounds above 70 to 90 decibels ? like > > that from power lawnmowers ? could result in permanent hearing > > loss. > > > > "Clearly, there is a message we need to get to kids at an early age,'' > > he says. "Telling kids, whether they are males or females, not to > > listen to rock music they enjoy is counterproductive. We need to > > teach them to listen to all types of music at safe levels.'' > > > > > > > Jean Lorrah, A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu. If no response in 72 hours, try > Jean1@xxxxxx.com. Visit my website, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ (I > will be inaccessible by any e-mail October 10-12, 1997.) ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC023.589FFE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One point I would make in regard to the = rock music issue, is that I am age 39, and am glad at least that the = kids are still listening to rock music: how many my age, listened to the = same kind of music our parents did? Do you think this indicates
less = of a generation gap, or just that rock music crosses the = gap?

P.S.: what kind of music do Simes listen to? Have they = preserved any Ancient tunes?
----------
> From: Jean Lorrah = <a21711f@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: Men vs. Women on music
> Date: = Thursday, September 11, 1997 12:47 PM
>
> This article was = posted to the Led Zeppelin miling list because of the
> reference = to the use of Zeppelin music.  However, I thought you might = be
> interested in it for the different reactions from men and = women.  Jean
> >
> >Men More Likely to Play Music = Loud
> > =            2:15 = p.m. EDT (1815 GMT) September 10, 1997
> >
> > NEW = YORK ? Men are more likely than women to play rock music
> > = loud, whether or not they really like it, suggests a study from = Ohio
> > University.
> >
> > The findings ? = from a study in college students ? raise the
> > possibility = that external circumstances, such as peer expectations
> > and = a need to test limits may influence the music volume that young
> = > men choose more than their own preference.
> >
> = > Dr. Donald Fucci, a professor of speech and hearing at Ohio
> = > University in Athens, Ohio, led a study in which 250 = college
> > students were asked to rate their preference for = rock music as high,
> > moderate, or low. Those who rated it = "high'' or "low'' were then
> > asked to listen to = rock music through earphones played at a range of
> > nine = volumes over 10 seconds.
> >
> > "I'd give... 10 = seconds of a signal (in this case the rock song
> > = "Heartbreaker'' by Led Zeppelin) and then (have the study = subject)
> > turn around and give me a number (one to nine) = that matches that
> > level,'' Fucci explains.
> = >
> > "Women who said they hated rock music always = would give you
> > high numbers, indicating it's too loud. But = women who liked it
> > would always give low numbers ? meaning, = 'This is fine, I like it;
> > it's a two.' But in the case of = the men, you couldn't find a
> > consistency. They gave you the = same numbers whether they
> > expressed extreme dislike for = rock music or extreme like.''
> >
> > "The only = inferences that I deduced were that men, in the case of
> > = preferences for loudness, work differently than women, and that
> = > women seem to base their interpretations on what they felt = about
> > the stimulus involved,'' Fucci says. "Men, on = the other hand, had a
> > feeling, but it did not relate to = their actual performance on their
> > loudness = scaling.''
> >
> > "I think women are more = attuned to their intuitions,'' he adds.
> > "When a woman = has a feeling about something, that will relate to
> > how they = react to it. Men, on the other hand, are a little looser
> > = there. They could have a feeling toward something but it won't
> = > necessarily dictate how they'll react to it.''
> >
> = > How does the researcher interpret that male response? = ''Maybe
> > there's peer pressure involved, I really don't = know. When you look
> > at these cars that vibrate from loud = music, how many women do
> > you see driving those cars? = They're all men. There could be
> > something stereotyped going = on ? 'It's powerful, strong, I can take
> > it' attitude, which = I don't think women buy into,'' he says.
> >
> > Fucci = says studies show that men are more prone to a
> > = sensori-neural hearing loss than women, but he also insists that = the
> > issue is not that simple. "Men hunt, run = high-level machinery... guys
> > do a lot of different things = girls don't do,'' he says.
> >
> > Still, Fucci = acknowledges the importance of getting the word out to
> > = young people about hearing loss from exposure to loud sounds. He
> = > says prolonged exposure to sounds above 70 to 90 decibels ? = like
> > that from power lawnmowers ? could result in permanent = hearing
> > loss.
> >
> > "Clearly, = there is a message we need to get to kids at an early age,''
> = > he says. "Telling kids, whether they are males or females, not = to
> > listen to rock music they enjoy is counterproductive. We = need to
> > teach them to listen to all types of music at safe = levels.''
> >
> >
> >
> Jean Lorrah, = A21711F@xxxxxx.  If no response in 72 hours, try
> Jean1@xxxxxx.00"> =  Visit my website, http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ (I
> will be inaccessible by any e-mail October = 10-12, 1997.)

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC023.589FFE80-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:33:36 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: missing library Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anybody know what's happened to the Ramon Farris Memorial Library page? It appears Geocities has given that page to somebody else; at least my bookmark is now taking me to a page by someone named "Darksiphor". Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:34:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: New Version of Old Story In a message dated 97-09-13 09:45:27 EDT, LIONESS1@xxxxxx.NET writes: << I'd like to add that in the older version of the urban legend that I heard, the cookie recipe was tried: and it was terrible. I am curious if anyone has tried this one, and does it work? >> It looks like a fairly standard chocolate chip cookie recipe to me. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:44:28 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Heidi Johnson Subject: Re: New Version of Old Story In-Reply-To: <970913113403_-1433474111@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Kaas Baichtal wrote: > In a message dated 97-09-13 09:45:27 EDT, LIONESS1@xxxxxx.NET writes: > > << I'd like to add that in the older version of the urban legend that I > heard, > the cookie recipe was tried: and it was terrible. > > I am curious if anyone has tried this one, and does it work? >> > > > It looks like a fairly standard chocolate chip cookie recipe to me. > > --Kaas It's been going around on no less than 2 of my other lists, and at less one person has reported that it's her family's favorite cookie recipe, regardless of its origin. ------ Cleanliness is next to godliness... and godliness is next to impossible. Heidi Johnson syria@xxxxxx.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:46:22 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: I'm my own Grandpa In a message dated 97-09-13 04:16:23 EDT, Segueway@xxxxxx.COM (Suzanne George) writes: << P.S. er, I've never heard the song "I'm My Own GrandPa": sounds like a summation of some of Heinlein's Metheselah books. (Can't remember the character's name.) Who does the song? >> I am not sure who originally wrote it. I heard it covered by a band called the Memories when I was running sound at the Minnesota State Fair about 6 years ago. It's about a guy who got married to an older woman and had a baby, then his dad married the wife's adult daughter from a previous marriage and THEY had a baby. The song goes all the way through all the implications of this two or three different ways... hilarious! --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Fwd: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg Date: 97-09-13 12:09:07 EDT From: AOL News
.c The Associated Press
By BOB THOMAS LOS ANGELES (AP) - What's this - a Borg in Leonardo da Vinci's workshop? Anything's possible on ``Star Trek: Voyager.'' The scene was bizarre during filming at Paramount. Studio craftsmen built a convincing replica of where da Vinci could have created his myriad wonders. Amid the clutter were a model of a flying machine, anatomy sketches, unfinished paintings. The visitor, played by Jeri Ryan, was Seven of Nine, crew member of the Starship USS Voyager. Her addition to the cast brings a note of glamour to the never-ending ``Star Trek'' odysseys. Seven of Nine is a human converted as a young girl to a Borg, allowing her to travel in time as well as space. Costumed head-to-toe in a svelte gray bodysuit, she explained that it was in her character's nature to ignore the centuries and visit da Vinci: ``Whenever I have an engineering problem to solve, I can go to the experts.'' As her role in the UPN series evolved she has shed some of her Borgish look, but telltale remnants remain: a crusted parenthesis on her left eye; a star-shaped spot on her right cheek; a pattern outlining the bones of her left hand. After lining up a shot, Miss Ryan is driven by golf cart to her trailer, where she talked about the role. ``I auditioned for it, like everyone else. Same old thing, going in for a reading, then going back and reading again. Going to the network and reading for them.'' Did she know what she was getting into? ``No. Around week two of filming, with a latex foam cap and a costume that cut off my carotid artery and made me black out, covered with airbrush paint from head to toe, it occurred to me that maybe I should have thought this out a little better. They had warned me, but they sort of downplayed it.'' The Borg get-up required 2 1/2 hours to apply. In her second episode, she looked half-Borg and half-human. That took three hours. The current makeup still takes three hours. Despite the daily ordeal, Miss Ryan proclaimed: ``It's a great, great job. I look forward to getting up and going to work. Unless the call is four o'clock in the morning, which is not a big thrill.'' Miss Ryan and her husband, investment banker Jack Ryan, maintain a long-distance marriage. His home base is Chicago, where she joins him on weekends unless his job travel brings him to L.A. Their son Alex, just turned 3, is a regular visitor to the set: ``He loves it. I'm afraid I have an actor on my hands.'' A lifetime of assimilating to new cultures is an aid to Miss Ryan, an Army brat born in Munich who spent her early years near bases in Kansas, Maryland, Georgia and Texas before the family settled in Paducah, Ky. She studied theater at Northwestern University and left for Hollywood after graduation in 1990. Within two months she had acquired an agent and her first acting job. She worked in series such as ``Matlock'' and ``Who's the Boss,'' a half-dozen TV movies and played a lesbian soap opera star in two episodes of ``Melrose Place.'' Her lone previous role as a regular came in another science-fiction series, ``Dark Skies.'' She met her husband at Northwestern when she was a volunteer at a charity function. While she dealt blackjack, he stayed at her table despite losing badly. ``He is a very good sport,'' she says of their separation most of each week. ``The main reason it's kind of feasible to have this commuter thing going on is that he travels on his job. So the only time we would see each other is on weekends. It's a little more bearable that one of us isn't sitting at home all week.'' AP-NY-09-13-97 1202EDT
 Copyright 1997 The
Associated Press.  The information
contained in the AP news report may not be published,
broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without
prior written authority of The Associated Press.
To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles. For all of today's news, go to keyword News. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 11:53:59 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "L-Soft list server at SIUC (1.8c) (by way of kimmel@xxxxxx.edu Leigh Kimmel)" Subject: rescued post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I found this post stuck in the works and pried it out, since it looks very important In a message dated 97-09-13 04:49:24 EDT, nova@xxxxxx.li.net (Nova) writes: > More bad news for writers. I don't have the exact facts but I've been told > that the City of Los Angeles is attempting to tax writers (particularly > screen writers) because they are "performing a service" for what they have > produced whether or not they have sold it. One writer found out that he owed > over one hundred thousand dollars on work that was not even optioned, let > alone sold. > They also wanted to tax cartoonists and illustrators for their physical > value, again, before the work was sold. That's insane. That would mean that people who paint, play music or do anything would be subject to tax. I think it would cause a riot, and be totally unenforceable. Nova It is insane and it is true. I looked at the website of the Writer's Guild of America http://www.wga.org/pr/0697/hometax.html and found the letter that was spoken of in a previous post. It seems that if a writer is freelancing, working at home, the writer is subject to an initial license fee of $25.00. However, depending on how much the writer receives for the work there is a set fee per amount and this can be found in the document. Actually, this does not seem so bad at first, until you start to examin what can go on. It implies censorship by of all people, the County Clerk. It also implies that the County Clerk has the right to decide who may write and who may not write on a purely arbitrary basis. Also, the amount of the tax varies in favor of television and radio writers. The implications go on and on and are listed in the document at the above site. What we all have to realize is that now, it's just those of us who write freelance in our homes (those who write for newspapers, or are hired by the studios or a production company are not taxed, even if they do their writing at home). However this could continue to grow to include all of those people who write those nasty little political statements and advocate unpopular causes, (like the Federalist Papers as judge Renquist mentioned and this is quoted in the document.) Anne ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg In a message dated 97-09-13 12:26:51 EDT, APinzow@xxxxxx.COM writes: << Miss Ryan and her husband, investment banker Jack Ryan >> Okay, I thought the word "Miss" was only used with unmarried women. How does that really work? --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Men vs. Women on music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:59 AM 9/13/97 -0400, Lioness (?) wrote: >One point I would make in regard to the rock music issue, is that I am age >39, and am glad at least that the kids are still listening to rock music: >how many my age, listened to the same kind of music our parents did? Do you >think this indicates >less of a generation gap, or just that rock music crosses the gap? > >P.S.: what kind of music do Simes listen to? Have they preserved any >Ancient tunes? I'm older than 39, and I love rock music. Yes, there is less of a generation gap--we constantly get new young members of the Led Zeppelin mailing list who say that one or both of their parents introduced them to the music. Several went to the Page/Plant concerts with their parents. Rock is the most versatile music of this century (possibly ever), containing elements of jazz, blues, soul, pop, gospel, folk, classical, and anything else you can think of. It ranges in subject matter from shock-rock-sex to thoughtful deep philosophy. And there is no single rock beat, either. So there is something for everyone. Of course Simes have preserved some Ancient tunes. In Gulf many of the jazz and blues classics developed in Memphis and New Orleans have been easily adapted from one kind of sorrow to another--changed radically, of course, but the mood is the same. Junctedness is hopelessness--you can try valiently, but you can't win. That's blues. The Gulf Sime version is the music Tonyo Logan hears from his mother (who is Gen and escaped across the border, but had to leave her family, her language, and everything she understood behind), and goes in search of immediately after Unity. Other music would also be handed down--can't you figure out what tune everyone is singing different words to at the end of ZELEROD'S DOOM? That one will never disappear--it was old when the words we are most familiar with today were put to it after the Civil War. Lots of present-day very old songs will be still older but recognizable--with whole new lyrics about something entirely different. But there will also be whole new musical forms, especially with the addition of the nageric element. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 06:37:41 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Men vs. Women on music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Other music would also be handed down--can't you figure out what tune > everyone is singing different words to at the end of ZELEROD'S DOOM? That > one will never disappear--it was old when the words we are most familiar > with today were put to it after the Civil War. What shall we do with the juncted channel? What shall we do with the juncted channel? What shall we do with the juncted channel? Ear-lie in the morning? Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Name that Tune Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:37 AM 9/14/97 +1000, Jenn wrote: >> Other music would also be handed down--can't you figure out what tune >> everyone is singing different words to at the end of ZELEROD'S DOOM? That >> one will never disappear--it was old when the words we are most familiar >> with today were put to it after the Civil War. > > >What shall we do with the juncted channel? >What shall we do with the juncted channel? >What shall we do with the juncted channel? >Ear-lie in the morning? Nope--that one will last, too, but it's not what they're singing at the end of ZD. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Judith Merrill Has Died (Fwd.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Karl Schroeder To: sfcanada@xxxxxx.utoronto.ca (sfcanada) Cc: clarion@xxxxxx.utoronto.ca (clarion ) Subject: Judy Merril has passed away Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:29:32 -0400 Message-ID: <97Sep13.132933edt.2858@xxxxxx..ca> I'm sad to announce that Judith Merril died last night of congestive heart failure. I have no more details at this time. I'm profoundly saddened by this news. I can't summon a fitting eulogy at this time, except to say that the last time I spoke to Judy, she told me how impressed she was by the generation of young people entering society today. "People are better than they were when I was young," she said. This more than anything, for me, exemplified Judy's gift; her eyes were fixed on the future with anticipation and wonder, even at the end of her life. Karl Schroeder President, SF Canada --------- End forwarded message ---------- Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Halper Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" it was recently asked: ><< Miss Ryan and her husband, investment banker Jack Ryan >> > > >Okay, I thought the word "Miss" was only used with unmarried women. How does >that really work? In media historically, before the term "Ms" was created, actresses had stage names and a stage persona to protect their privacy. They were often called Miss even though in their private life, they might be married, since studios believed that audiences wanted the fantasy that the actress was single and waiting to meet them... To this day, some newspapers hold to the old custom of referring to an actress as Miss. (Btw, did simes and gens ever distinguish in title between married and single women? If so, why???) What always bothered me about our custom is that men were called Mister no matter what, while women's status and title changed depending on whether she was married or single. That is why some women began using what was supposed to be the neutral "Ms", but which became mainly a title used by first-wave feminists of the baby boomer generation... it never did catch on with the vast majority of people in America. I still use it, since I kept my name when I married and since I have never felt my value or status as a person has anything to do with whether or not I have a husband. A lot of magazines and newspapers are not sure what to call women anymore-- some don't use any title, others call the woman Mrs. if she is married-- whether that is her preference or not. Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:24:03 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: missing library On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:33:36 -0800 Mary Lou Mendum writes: >Does anybody know what's happened to the Ramon Farris Memorial Library >page? It appears Geocities has given that page to somebody else; at >least >my bookmark is now taking me to a page by someone named "Darksiphor". > >Mary Lou > I got the same site ("Darksiphor") through one of the links in the Virtual Tecton Webring the other night. Who's going to solve The Mystery of the Disappearing Web Site? Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:29:35 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: New Version of Old Story On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:09 -0500 Jean Lorrah writes: >The old urban legend surfaces again--this time via e-mail! Thought >you >might be interested in a new variation on a story that started around >the >turn of the century. It used to be set at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel >in NYC. >First it was Waldorf Salad, and later, the version many of you will >remember, Waldorf Red Velvet Cake. > >Though this is technically spam, and I advise you _not_ to post it to >other >mailing lists, I am passing it on to this one because we are >interested in >things like urban legends--and also because it looks like a good >recipe! Jean > Yes, this story really makes the rounds. My mother gave me a copy of a cookie recipe (I don't know if its the same recipe or not), she said one of her friendsgave it to her because she had to pay so much for it. I think the name of the store was different as well. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 23:43:27 -0400 Donna Halper writes: >What always bothered me about our custom is that men were called >Mister no >matter what, while women's status and title changed depending on >whether she >was married or single. Actually boys were given the courtesy title of "Master". My Grandmother used to address her letters to my brother to Master Floyd Sykes. > Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman >who >kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) > I always use Ms when a title is appropriate. Since I never married I didn't have to worry about changing my name. I know at least one couple where the woman retained her maiden name upon her marriage. They appear in totally different places in our club directory. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:38:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Ms. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Donna writes, >That is why some women began using what was supposed >to be the neutral "Ms", but which became mainly a title used by first-wave >feminists of the baby boomer generation... it never did catch on with the >vast majority of people in America. Oh, now _that_ is interesting! It certainly did catch on in academe. My students always use it--it is probably fifteen years since the last time one of them addressed me as "Mrs." (I'm not). In the classroom "Ms." eliminates all the "Is she single?" "Is she married?" "Does she have a doctorate?" worries with one blow. It has also caught on in the south, where it is considered impolite to address a woman of more than maybe 21 as "Miss." Apparently the term suggests that she must be undesirable (southerners have real problems with the idea that a woman might remain single by choice). But it used to be embarrassing for both parties for the woman addressed as "Mrs." to have to point out that she was single. Now "Ms." covers the situation without embarrassment. Off campus I am consistently addressed as "Ms." except by people who know it's "Dr. Lorrah" (small town, large university). BTW, I have never in my entire career heard the term "Professor" used as a form of address on an actual college campus except in ceremonial situations. Only people who have never been to college use it, influenced by movies and television shows which appear to be written by people who have never set foot on a campus. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: missing library Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:24 PM 9/13/97 -0500, Jacquelyn wrote: >On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:33:36 -0800 Mary Lou Mendum >writes: >>Does anybody know what's happened to the Ramon Farris Memorial Library >>page? It appears Geocities has given that page to somebody else; at >>least >>my bookmark is now taking me to a page by someone named "Darksiphor". >> >>Mary Lou >> >I got the same site ("Darksiphor") through one of the links in the >Virtual Tecton Webring the other night. Who's going to solve The Mystery >of the Disappearing Web Site? It has to be the person whose website the Rimon Farris Memorial Library resides on. Is that person out there? It's very easy for you to use the Geocities utilities to check this situation out--but no one else can get in to do it. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:51:25 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: New Version of Old Story On Saturday September 13, Jacqueline Sykes writes: >Yes, this story really makes the rounds. My mother gave me a copy of a >cookie recipe (I don't know if its the same recipe or not), she said >one of her friendsgave it to her because she had to pay so much for >it. I think the name of the store was different as well. >Jacquelyn > I had gotten a similar copy a few years back that was a Mrs. Fields cookie recipe that someone had paid too much for. This was before the recipes were published and sold professionally. Lynda ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:45:54 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Message I sent Darksipher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Darksipher, Sime~Gen fans are wondering how your website came to replace the Rimon Farris Memorial Library, which was on Area51/Vault/5683/ until a couple of days ago. It appears to be a GeoCities error--they should not have told you that that site was available. As we have a large ring of Sime~Gen websites, and we just discovered the problem yesterday, we haven't yet figured out whose site yours has replaced. As GeoCities sites are free, obviously the site did not become available because someone did not pay a fee. GeoCities is just wonderful, but because it is so huge, there will inevitably be errors at times. So you should know that as soon as the webmaster of Area51/Vault/5683/ becomes aware that the Rimon Farris Library on that site has been accidentally erased, GeoCities will be asked to replace it--they do regular backups, and so can easily do so. Therefore sometime in the next few days you can expect an apology from GeoCities and a request to move. I am very sorry about this situation, but we Sime~Gen fans who run the ring of websites of which the Rimon Farris Library is just one are even more victims of the GeoCities error than you are. At least in your case you had not yet gone to all the work of building your site. Thank you for your understanding. I'm sure GeoCities will find an equally attractive site for you, and help you with any difficulties caused you by their error. Jean Lorrah Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:45:56 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Geocities admits its problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Darksipher, Below are the posts from GeoCities on its own bulletin board as of the past three days. They are in reverse order. As you can see, they are replacing files now, so the Rimon Farris Library will soon replace your notice on your site. Please contact GeoCities and let them know that you need a new site because you were an innocent victim of their technical difficulties. Thank you for your understanding. Jean Lorrah 14 September - 04:51 PST (-08:00 GMT) We are continuing to replace any missing files from affected directories. Thank you for your patience during this process. GeoCities Operations Team 13 September - 05:22 PST (-08:00 GMT) There may still be trouble reaching some pages in several neighborhoods. We are taking steps to make sure all missing files are restored. Thank you for your understanding. GeoCities Operations Team 12 September - 15:55 PST (-08:00 GMT) We are currently experiencing difficulties in the following neighborhoods: Area51 and all suburbs, NapaValley, MadisonAvenue, Pentagon, Eureka, CapitolHill, CapeCanaveral. You may or may not be affected, but if you are, rest assured, we are working around the clock to restore everyone affected back to their original state. The situation should be resolved in several hours. We appreciate your understanding. GeoCities Operations Team Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:53:58 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: Ms. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >BTW, I have never in my entire career heard the term "Professor" used as a >form of address on an actual college campus except in ceremonial situations. >Only people who have never been to college use it, influenced by movies and >television shows which appear to be written by people who have never set >foot on a campus. Jean I have heard "Professor" used, usually but not always in reference to somebody who isn't present at the time. I suspect it's a European thing, since it is used most frequently by foreign students, or to foreign-born professors who aren't really comfortable with the American habit of calling bosses by their first names. It also seems to be used more to refer to people who love teaching, rather than those whose first love is research. So, my first mentor at UC Davis was the Austrailian-born and British-educated Professor Mullins, but my final major professor is usually referred to as Doug, or Dr. Adams by his former India-born grad student Chandrika. (In a large research university, all professors have doctorates, or they wouldn't be hired, at least in the science departments.) It's raining today, so they can't pick grapes! I have my first day off in three weeks, and the second in five! Nice clouds, lovely clouds... Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:02:45 -0800 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: missing library Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I checked just now (10 Sunday morning, Pacific time), and Darksiphor is still occupying the Ramon Farris Library site. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Mrs./Ms./Miss In a message dated 97-09-13 23:42:32 EDT, you write: << and newspapers are not sure what to call women anymore-- some don't use any title, others call the woman Mrs. if she is married-- whether that is her preference or not. Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) >> Actaully, all of my professional corrospondences I address Ms. and I get them Ms.....but down here in the South where I live EVERYONE is Miss....all of the CHILDREN must address an adult as Miss (and whatever name the adult chooses--which is usually a first name if they're your friends)....I have RARELY been called Mrs.:)....I'm Miss Cheryl to everyone...and belive it or not, even a lot of the adults(probably from having kids)well say, why hello, Miss Cheryl(and in turn I sometimes say Hello Miss Gayle, etc...) CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:39:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Ms. In a message dated 97-09-14 09:30:37 EDT, a21711f@xxxxxx.MURSUKY.EDU writes: << BTW, I have never in my entire career heard the term "Professor" used as a form of address on an actual college campus except in ceremonial situations. Only people who have never been to college use it, influenced by movies and television shows which appear to be written by people who have never set foot on a campus. Jean >> LOL--I can remember some of our professors (In Okla--where I used to live)insisting on Professor(only a few)...but most were Dr. (The classes I took--chemistry, etc) or just their first name:) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:00:27 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: SIMEGEN-L: error report from AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had to rescue yet another lost post -- everybody who's using AOL, please double-check your settings to make sure that you're not sending thru old headers when replying to someone else's post. It confuses the server, making it think that mail is looping back to itself. > >In a message dated 97-09-14 09:30:28 EDT, a21711f@xxxxxx.MURSUKY.EDU >writes: > ><< At 10:24 PM 9/13/97 -0500, Jacquelyn wrote: > >On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:33:36 -0800 Mary Lou Mendum > >writes: > >>Does anybody know what's happened to the Ramon Farris Memorial Library > >>page? It appears Geocities has given that page to somebody else; at > >>least > >>my bookmark is now taking me to a page by someone named "Darksiphor". > >> > >>Mary Lou > >> > >I got the same site ("Darksiphor") through one of the links in the > >Virtual Tecton Webring the other night. Who's going to solve The Mystery > >of the Disappearing Web Site? > > It has to be the person whose website the Rimon Farris Memorial Library > resides on. Is that person out there? It's very easy for you to use the > Geocities utilities to check this situation out--but no one else can get in > to do it. Jean > > Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ > **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** > > >> >If I remember right, Jacqueline owns this site. I've also sent a message to >her at her regular e-dress, so maybe she'll realize the library is missing. > Karen Litman > > >At 10:24 PM 9/13/97 -0500, Jacquelyn wrote: >>On Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:33:36 -0800 Mary Lou Mendum >>writes: >>>Does anybody know what's happened to the Ramon Farris Memorial Library >>>page? It appears Geocities has given that page to somebody else; at >>>least >>>my bookmark is now taking me to a page by someone named "Darksiphor". >>> >>>Mary Lou >>> >>I got the same site ("Darksiphor") through one of the links in the >>Virtual Tecton Webring the other night. Who's going to solve The Mystery >>of the Disappearing Web Site? > >It has to be the person whose website the Rimon Farris Memorial Library >resides on. Is that person out there? It's very easy for you to use the >Geocities utilities to check this situation out--but no one else can get in >to do it. Jean > >Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ >**I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:05:29 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Name that Tune Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 06:37 AM 9/14/97 +1000, Jenn wrote: >>> Other music would also be handed down--can't you figure out what tune >>> everyone is singing different words to at the end of ZELEROD'S DOOM? That >>> one will never disappear--it was old when the words we are most familiar >>> with today were put to it after the Civil War. >> It's the tune more commonly known as "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," altho I believe that the tune was old even when the earlier words of "John Brown's Body" (referring to the executed leader of the raid on Harper's Ferry) were put to it. As a side note, I once made up a Dr. Who filk for that tune, long before I knew that filking was a common practice, and sang it to myself when I was away from people who would ridicule me for singing it. I never wrote it down, so I only remember bits and fragments of the verses (one for each of the first six doctors, so that dates it pretty well). However I do remember the refrain: Yes, oh yes, we want the Doctor! Yes, oh yes, we want the Doctor! There is no better program on the entire TV dial. We want our Doctor Who! "England expects every man to do his duty." ---- Admiral Lord Nelson Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:03:09 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Ms.; forms of address When our youngest (now 15) was little and went to a neighborhood in-home sitter for after school, I taught him to call her "Ms. Charlene." Last name didn't seem intimate enough, and I've never liked the custom of having children call non-related adult friends "Aunt" or "Uncle." I grew up in Norfolk, apparently not "Southern" enough for the "Miss [first name]" custom. Or maybe it varies according to ethnic group as well as geography, since both my supervisors at work, Marylanders as far as I know, and black, sometimes use it. A contemporary problem: What to call a female priest (Episcopalian)? "Sister Glasspool," as an evangelical-denomination female pastor might be called, won't do, since it sounds like a nun. "Mother Glasspool" definitely implies that she is the head of a convent. "Ms." doesn't seem reverent enough. So we call her "Mary" -- her own choice. We have just acquired a male associate rector, and since it would sound funny to call him "Father [last name]" while calling the rector by her first name, I expect we will address him as "Wes." Why does first name sound more appropriate to us than "Mr." or "Ms."? Probably has something to do with the concept that the church is supposed to be like a family (and "Mother" won't work, as noted above). Other Protestant denominations do properly call their clergy "Mr." (as most Episcopalians probably used to -- nowadays we aren't afraid of appearing "Catholic") -- "Reverend," contrary to popular belief, is absolutely beyond the pale. We know Simes use "Tuib" as an analogue of "Mr." What do they call women? We have seen "Miz" used in Klyd and Risa's time. Do Gens use "Mr." and "Miz"? LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Fwd: List of Emmy Award Winners --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: List of Emmy Award Winners Date: 97-09-14 13:42:02 EDT From: AOL News
.c The Associated Press
Winners of the 49th Annual Primetime Emmy Awards: Previously Announced or Presented INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN ART DIRECTION FOR A SERIES: ``The X-Files: Memento Mori,'' Fox. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN ART DIRECTION FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Jane Austen's Emma,'' A&E. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN ART DIRECTION FOR A VARIETY OR MUSIC PROGRAM: ``Centennial Olympic Games: Opening Ceremonies,'' NBC. CULTURAL MUSIC-DANCE PROGRAM: Puccini's ``La Boheme'' with the New York City Opera, ``Live From Lincoln Center,'' PBS. CULTURAL PROGRAMMING PERFORMANCE: Pilobolus Dance Theatre Performers, ``John F. Kennedy Center 25th Anniversary Celebration,'' PBS. GUEST ACTOR, DRAMA SERIES: Pruitt Taylor Vince, ``Murder One,'' ABC. GUEST ACTRESS, DRAMA SERIES: Dianne Wiest, ``Avonlea,'' Disney Channel. GUEST ACTOR, COMEDY SERIES: Mel Brooks, ``Mad About You,'' NBC. GUEST ACTRESS, COMEDY SERIES: Carol Burnett, ``Mad About You,'' NBC. OUTSTANDING COMMERCIAL: ``HBO Chimps,'' Pytka production company and BBDO advertising agency. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN CASTING FOR A SERIES: ``ER,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN CASTING FOR A MINISERIES OR SPECIAL: ``Bastard Out of Carolina,'' Showtime. INDIVIDUAL CHOREOGRAPHY FOR A SERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Scott Hamilton: Upside Down,'' CBS, and ``3rd Rock from the Sun: A Nightmare on Dick Street,'' NBC. SOUND EDITING FOR A SERIES: ``The X-Files: Tempus Fugit,'' Fox. SOUND EDITING, MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Stephen King's The Shining: Part 3,'' ABC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN COSTUMING FOR A SERIES: ``JAG: Cowboys & Cossacks,'' CBS. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN COSTUMING FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Disney's `The Hunchback of Notre Dame'' Festival of Fun Musical Spectacular,'' Disney Channel. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN HAIRSTYLING FOR A SERIES: ``Star Trek: Voyager: Fair Trade,'' UPN. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN HAIRSTYLING FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Mrs. Santa Claus,'' CBS. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MUSIC COMPOSITION FOR A SERIES: ``The Cape: Pilot,'' syndicated. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MUSIC COMPOSITION FOR A MINISERIES OR SPECIAL: ``The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles: Travels with Father,'' Family Channel. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MUSIC DIRECTION: ``Centennial Olympic Games: Opening Ceremonies,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MUSIC AND LYRICS: ``We Put the Spring in Springfield'' from ``The Simpsons: Bart After Dark,'' Fox. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MAIN TITLE THEME MUSIC: ``EZ Streets: A Terrible Beauty,'' CBS. SOUND MIXING, VARIETY OR MUSIC SERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``The 69th Annual Academy Awards,'' ABC. SOUND MIXING, DRAMA SERIES: ``ER: Fear of Flying,'' NBC. SOUND MIXING, DRAMA MINISERIES OR SPECIAL: ``Titanic: Part 1,'' CBS. SOUND MIXING, COMEDY SERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``3rd Rock from the Sun: A Nightmare on Dick Street,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MAIN TITLE DESIGN: ``Dark Skies,'' NBC. INFORMATIONAL SERIES: ``A&E Biography,'' A&E; ``The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century,'' PBS. OUTSTANDING SPECIAL VISUAL EFFECTS FOR A SERIES OR SPECIAL: ``The Odyssey,'' NBC. TECHNICAL DIRECTION-CAMERA-VIDEO, SERIES: ``The Tonight Show with Jay Leno: Show 1079,'' NBC. TECHNICAL DIRECTION-CAMERA-VIDEO, MINISERIES OR SPECIAL: ``Disney's Beauty and the Beast: A Concert on Ice,'' CBS. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MAKEUP FOR A SERIES: ``Tracey Takes On ... Vegas,'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN MAKEUP FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Stephen King's The Shining,'' ABC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT, INFORMATIONAL PROGRAMMING: ``Memphis PD: War on the Streets,'' HBO; ``National Geographic Special: Tigers of the Snow,'' NBC and ``Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills,'' HBO. ANIMATED PROGRAM (For programming one hour or less): ``The Simpsons: Homer's Phobia,'' Fox. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN EDITING FOR A SERIES, SINGLE CAMERA PRODUCTION: ``ER: The Long Way Around,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN EDITING FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL, SINGLE CAMERA PRODUCTION: ``Miss Evers' Boys,'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN EDITING FOR SERIES, MULTI-CAMERA PRODUCTION: ``Ellen: The Puppy Episode,'' ABC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN EDITING FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL, MULTI-CAMERA PRODUCTION: ``The Kennedy Center Honors,'' CBS. INFORMATIONAL SPECIAL: ``Without Pity: A Film About Abilities,'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN COSTUME DESIGN FOR A SERIES: ``3rd Rock from the Sun: A Nightmare on Dick Street,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN COSTUME DESIGN FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``The Inheritance,'' CBS, and ``Jane Austen's Emma,'' A&E. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN COSTUME DESIGN FOR A VARIETY OR MUSIC PROGRAM: ``Tracey Takes On ... 1976,'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN CINEMATOGRAPHY FOR A SERIES: ``Law & Order: Mad Dog,'' NBC. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN CINEMATOGRAPHY FOR A MINISERIES OR A SPECIAL: ``Miss Evers' Boys,'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN LIGHTING DIRECTION (ELECTRONIC) FOR A COMEDY SERIES: ``Cosby: Pilot,'' CBS. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN LIGHTING DIRECTION FOR A DRAMA SERIES, VARIETY SERIES, MINISERIES OR SPECIAL: ``Bette Midler: Diva Las Vegas,'' HBO. CHILDREN'S PROGRAM: ``How Do You Spell God?'' HBO. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN VOICE-OVER PERFORMANCE: ``The Great War and the Shaping of the 20th Century,'' PBS, and ``Willows in Winter,'' Family Channel. INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT IN ANIMATION: ``Testament: The Bible in Animation - Moses,'' HBO; ``Willows in Winter,'' Family Channel, and ``Boo To You Too! Winnie the Poo,'' CBS. SYD CASSYD AWARD: Thomas Sarnoff. ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENT: J.L. Fisher, Inc, for development of its camera dollies. ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENT: Panasonic Corp., for its AJ-LT75 DVCPRO ``Laptop'' editor. ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENT: Seven organizations known as the ``Grand Alliance,'' for developing digital TV technology. CHARLES F. JENKINS LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT FOR ENGINEERING: Former FCC chairman Richard E. Wiley. GOVERNORS AWARD: ABC's ``March Against Drugs'' campaign. GOVERNORS AWARD: HBO's ``Comic Relief'' benefit specials. GOVERNORS AWARD: Jack Venza, executive producer of PBS's ``Great Performance'' programs. AP-NY-09-14-97 1330EDT
 Copyright 1997 The
Associated Press.  The information
contained in the AP news report may not be published,
broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without
prior written authority of The Associated Press.
To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles. For all of today's news, go to keyword News. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:27:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:37 PM 9/14/97 -0400, Cheryl wrote: down here in the South where I live EVERYONE is Miss....all of the >CHILDREN must address an adult as Miss (and whatever name the adult >chooses--which is usually a first name if they're your friends)....I have >RARELY been called Mrs.:)....I'm Miss Cheryl to everyone...and belive it or >not, even a lot of the adults(probably from having kids)well say, why hello, >Miss Cheryl(and in turn I sometimes say Hello Miss Gayle, etc...) Now this is also fascinating. This habit was disappearing when I taught in Florida thirty-five years ago in my pre-Ph.D. days--some elderly ladies were still Miss Carol or Miss Lucy, but I was Miss Lorrah to my students. Of course there was none of the former on the Florida State campus in Tallahassee, and when I moved to Kentucky I found none of it on campus, and only the occasional elderly lady still addressed by Miss First Name in town. The only Miss First Names left today in this area are ninety years old or more. The polite way to address a woman in what is called the "mid-South" is Ms. Last Name. Where in the South do you live, Cheryl, where the old customs are still kept up? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Halper Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding Jean's comments, I too seldom hear faculty addressed as "Professor" unless they have stated that is their preference-- some of the older faculty do want to be addressed that way. Most of us "young folks" prefer first name or Mr/Miss/Ms. whatever; however, a few who have a PhD like to be called Doctor. There no longer seems to be one rule for every situation. I tell my students if they are wondering what to call someone, just ask-- why risk offending a person, since we are a lot less formal these days. But the upper echelons on campus do still seem to prefer their titles-- I can't imagine calling the president of Emerson College by her first name-- even if she said I could, it would feel rude to me, because Mom raised me to be polite to presidents and deans and others who are highly educated... If I met Jean, out of respect for who she is, I would first ask her how she likes to be addressed... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Maureen P. Gibbins" Subject: Ms./Names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Donna Halper asks: > Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who >kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) Nope - I'm a confirmed Ms. - and about half of my friends kept their maiden names when they married. Some of them use their maiden names professionally and take to hypenating their names in matters which involve their children. - Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Gene Roddenberry Maureen Gibbins mgibbins@xxxxxx.sdsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:59:26 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Maureen P. Gibbins" Subject: Re: Ms. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jean Lorrah writes - >BTW, I have never in my entire career heard the term "Professor" used as a >form of address on an actual college campus except in ceremonial situations. >Only people who have never been to college use it, influenced by movies and >television shows which appear to be written by people who have never set >foot on a campus. Jean > I always addressed my graduate advisor as Prof. Witherspoon (until he invited me to call him John). He had a master's degree from Stanford (opting for that rather than completing his doctorate) when he became instrumental in getting radio included in the Public Broadcasting Act. He went on to become instrumental in the development of public television (until he and his boss resigned in protest during Nixon's assault on public broadcasting) and then to be the first president of the Public Service Satellite Consortium, pioneering the use of satellite to address the development communications needs of countries such as India. Professor was a wonderful way for students to show respect to a remarkable individual who has an international reputation in his field and has helped to profoundly shape public telecommunications in this country. Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Gene Roddenberry Maureen Gibbins mgibbins@xxxxxx.sdsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:30:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Forms of Address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My, we are turning up a variety of differences around the country--which is of course why we also find differences in different territories in S~G. Margaret writes, >We know Simes use "Tuib" as an analogue of "Mr." What do they call women? > We have seen "Miz" used in Klyd and Risa's time. Do Gens use "Mr." and >"Miz"? > Yes, something analagous to those forms survives, and is represented that way in the English Jacqueline and I write. I'm reminded of the time Tony Logan first buys property in Gulf--he and Zhag have been renting for years, although their lodgings have improved. When the local Genfarm goes out of business, soon after Carla refuses to marry him after her husband has died, Tony decides to buy it to keep it in operation as a farm growing things Gens can eat. Gen population is growing in Gulf, but food for Gens is pretty plain stuff--whatever diet they share in common with Simes is all there is. The farm has provided necessary dairy products, for example, that will disappear if it is turned into something else. Tony doesn't have enough money to cover the land, taxes, _and_ hiring people to do the farmwork. But he's been living in Norlea for years, now, and has connections at Carre. The Householding is planning to take in the Gens and children from the farm, to house and educate. Tony strikes a bargain with them: he will house and feed them if Carre will provide teachers to educate them. The Householding is only too happy to agree--they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. And thus Tony keeps an experienced workforce on the farm for the time being, and only has to hire a couple of supervisors. Gulf has by this time instituted a method of moving Gens raised for the kill but not killed into citizenship. They must be educated and pass a test. Some are never going to make it, and will require supervision all their lives. For the moment, there are more than a hundred Gens and children on the farm who are not citizens and require someone to be responsible for them until their status changes. It's when he signs the papers to be official guardian to all these people that Tony suddenly realizes what he is getting himself into. Especially when, after the formalities are concluded, he is addressed as "Tuib Logan." (See, I told you this was connected with the topic.) He's been Tonyo in-T, ever since he met Zhag, and afforded the courtesy of acknowledging his last name, Tonyo Logan, as a Free Gen. But no one has ever addressed him formally before. (Not that Zhag is ever Tuib Paget, either--they are entertainers, not exactly considered fine upstanding citizens in that time and place. In ten more years it will be different.) Zhag, by the way, thinks the whole scheme is a stroke of insanity, but if Tonyo wants to throw his money away.... So Tony decides that his enterprise will be the first business in Gulf Territory completely owned and run by Gens. For a long time the farm is only modestly successful (Zhag is surprised that it is even self-supporting)--but once Oliver Teague gets involved.... Anyway, on the day that Tony signs all the papers and officially takes responsibility, he tells Zhag, "I can't believe it--suddenly I'm responsible for all these people, when I've hardly ever even been responsible for myself!" And Zhag, of course, chokes on his porstan and manages not to point out the obvious. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:19:04 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss Cheryl wrote: down here in the South where I live EVERYONE is Miss....all of the >CHILDREN must address an adult as Miss (and whatever name the adult >chooses--which is usually a first name if they're your friends)....I have >RARELY been called Mrs.:)....I'm Miss Cheryl to everyone...and belive it or >not, even a lot of the adults(probably from having kids)well say, why hello, >Miss Cheryl(and in turn I sometimes say Hello Miss Gayle, etc...) Now this is also fascinating. This habit was disappearing when I taught in Florida thirty-five years ago in my pre-Ph.D. days--some elderly ladies were still Miss Carol or Miss Lucy, but I was Miss Lorrah to my students. Of course there was none of the former on the Florida State campus in Tallahassee, and when I moved to Kentucky I found none of it on campus, and only the occasional elderly lady still addressed by Miss First Name in town. The only Miss First Names left today in this area are ninety years old or more. The polite way to address a woman in what is called the "mid-South" is Ms. Last Name. Where in the South do you live, Cheryl, where the old customs are still kept up? Jean >> I still think this Miss, Ms. etc. is a sign of respect.... as the Volunteer Coordinator of the Riding Center, there is only one teen who addresses me with this type of repect consistantly ---- though the policy is "first name basis for all" there. She either calls me Mrs. Litman or Miss Karen, even though the policy is well known. This must be a sign of her upbringing. For the record, I understand my part of New Jersey was considered South of the Mason-Dixon Line, though I have not researched this. The girls' mother was raised in Great Britain which may have a bearing on this attitude. ---- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:47:09 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Forms of Address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > My, we are turning up a variety of differences around the country--which is > of course why we also find differences in different territories in S~G. > Ok. How's this one? At the University of Queensland (in St Lucia, Brisbane, Australia) we had to call the staff Dr , Mr , Mrs/Ms/Miss or Professor . At Griffith University (in Nathan, Brisbane), less than 10 kilometres away, Doc Dave insisted I NOT call him Dr Billington. Professor Dromey was Geoff. Dr Don Abel was Don. (And yes, Dr David Billington was 'Doc Dave'.) The University of Queensland was the first university in the state, and the 'traditional' university. Griffith University was the newest, less than ten years old. Things other than geography can decide forms of address... Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:02:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Halper Subject: Re: Forms of Address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And of course, Donna your friendly broadcast historian can attest to the fact that back in the early days of radio, any engineer who could teach the new science of broadcasting was referred to as "Doc" whether they had a degree or not. Out in San Jose, an engineer named Charles Herrold started a radio school in 1909 and all his students called him "Doc" although he barely had an undergraduate degree... since he knew more than they did, they were trying to show him respect. And in baseball, where the stereotype is that athletes are not especially educated, any ballplayers with college degrees are jokingly referred to as "Prof", I am told, or sometimes "'Fess" (short for Professor). Go figure... Btw, in the sime-gen universe, who has been the most influential and respected female (forgive a dumb question, but I have not read every book or fanzine yet...)-- and by what title would she have been known, since Tuib is a male title, right? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:14:06 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Forms of Address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Btw, in the sime-gen universe, who has > been the most influential and respected female (forgive a dumb question, but > I have not read every book or fanzine yet...)-- and by what title would she > have been known, since Tuib is a male title, right? Who says? That's a bit of an assumption - that titles are split male/female. Sectuib isn't. Nazther isn't. Sosectu isn't. Sounds to me like simelan _doesn't_ split titles male/female. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 02:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss Well, for what it's worth, I dislike all of the titles and avoid their use on me when possible. When there is no way to avoid it gracefully (which is extremely rare) I let them put Ms. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:45:18 +1100 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: qamh Subject: Mrs,Ms,Miss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also try to avoid titles, Legally i'mstill mariad but 20yrs seperated. Because i dont give a title i usually get Miss. And just toadd to it my stage name is "Madam Zoe". This was given to me by an announcer who had troble just saying "Here's Zoe", She HAD to have another name to add to it. I fought it for years but it finally stuck Zoe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:38:59 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Forms of address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Donna asks, >Btw, in the sime-gen universe, who has >been the most influential and respected female (forgive a dumb question, but >I have not read every book or fanzine yet...)-- and by what title would she >have been known, since Tuib is a male title, right? > No, like Sectuib, which is derived from it, it applies to either sex. One of the points we intended to make in S~G is that men and women are equal, and no one even gives it a thought. Undoubtedly unconscious assumptions of both Jacqueline and me crept into the writing, but equality is what we were consciously trying to do. But Tuib is not thrown around the way Mr. is--it's a term of special respect, and you are right--I don't think in all those books we ever had an instance of its being applied to a woman. Our omission. I have a habit of writing about these working class people (my own background) who become important--but they end up with titles like Hajene and Sectuib (Risa) instead of the titles used outside the Householdings. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss In a message dated 97-09-14 18:19:45 EDT, a21711f@xxxxxx.MURSUKY.EDU writes: << Where in the South do you live, Cheryl, where the old customs are still kept up? Jean >> I think that is EXACTLY the problem...I live in Louisiana...we never did this in OK;) at least not when I was a kid.... However, I was watching America's Funniest Videos one night and a little kid was on there talking to the host....the audience and the host roared with laughter becauset his four year old said "YES SIR" after every single question, etc. the host asked...never yes or yeah, but yes sir or no sir....I thought, but if you don't say that down here, their mama would pop their mouth and everyone else would be insulted! Very very...old mannered:) CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss In a message dated 97-09-15 05:32:33 EDT, you write: << Well, for what it's worth, I dislike all of the titles and avoid their use on me when possible. When there is no way to avoid it gracefully (which is extremely rare) I let them put Ms. --Kaas >> Well, Miss Kaas, I'll certainly remember that:) CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:53:52 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Forms of Address (Tony) Thanks for posting the story summary, Jean -- when do we get to READ it? (Pant, pant --) I love Jean's fiction -- to me, HER Sarek and Amanda (including the fanzine series) are still the canonical ones, and Risa is one of my favorite characters. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Mrs./Ms./Miss (Sir, Ma'am) About the little boy who answered with "Yes, sir" and "No, sir" -- good for him! Sad to confess, I got lax quite early in our marriage, so my kids did not grow up with the "Sir" and "Ma'am" habit. But I was astonished, as a young adult, to find that some people thought "Yes, ma'am" sounded servile or just funnily old-fashioned. My father, a well-off professional (a CPA), always addressed his clients as "Sir" and "Ma'am" -- just common courtesy. And Norfolk isn't all that "Southern." I'm glad our youngest is in Junior ROTC, where at least he can get a taste of formal courtesies. As I've probably mentioned before, one reason I like the early periods of S-G history is the feudal flavor of the culture, the respect from "below" and the sense of obligation to duty from "above" (not that I would want to live, in real life, with all the baggage thereto appertaining). LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:10:09 CST Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Rimon's library is back Everyone will be pleased to know that Geocities has restored the Rimon Farris Memorial Library to its rightful place. I have received no response from Darksiphor, but at least s/he did receive a polite notice that it would happen. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: S~G kid songs (was: Men vs. Women on music) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenn Vesperman wrote: > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > Ear-lie in the morning? Lock her up in the Final Year House, Lock her up in the Final Year House, Lock her up in the Final Year House, Ear-lie in the morning! (Too grim, but it's what came to mind.) Some more: My Donor lies over the ocean, My Donor lies over the sea, My Donor lies over the ocean, Oh send back my Donor to me! Etc. Jak and Jil went up the hill To have themselves a transfer, But Jak fell down and broke his crown And Jil augmented after! (Distect nursery rhyme) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:55:11 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Ms. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > Oh, now _that_ is interesting! It certainly did catch on in academe. My > students always use it--it is probably fifteen years since the last time one > of them addressed me as "Mrs." (I'm not). In the classroom "Ms." eliminates > all the "Is she single?" "Is she married?" "Does she have a doctorate?" > worries with one blow. Well, you *are* in the South, where /mIz/ has been one common pronunciation of "Mrs." for generations. I always was sorry that we didn't revert to the 18th-century practice of using "Mrs." for all women, married or not. That is what German has done: generalized the "married woman" title to all women. > BTW, I have never in my entire career heard the term "Professor" used as a > form of address on an actual college campus except in ceremonial situations. > Only people who have never been to college use it, influenced by movies and > television shows which appear to be written by people who have never set > foot on a campus. It depends on the location of the college. "Professor Lorrah" was certainly the standard form of address at both my father's university (Rutgers/Newark, NJ) and my mother's (City College of New York) for all faculty members. When I answered the phone at home, callers often asked me for "Professor Cowan" and I would have to ask "Professor Thomas or Professor Marianne?". (My mother wanted me to say "My father or my mother?" but I refused to do that, as it seemed too juvenile to me. Ah, teenagers.) On the other hand, calling somebody just "Professor", without a surname, is definitely lower-class-marked if not insulting. I remember reading once that the disuse of "Professor" in the Midwest (and, a fortiori, further west as well) was influenced by the use of the title for bordello piano-players. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Rimon's Library Page The link to the Library Page from Jacqueline's .j51.com is not working. Darksypher came up again -- this is Monday at 2 p.m. in New Jersey. If there's a direct address for the page, I don't have it. So Geocities may still have a problem. Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:51:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Forms of Address -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: I'm doing 115 message backlog in REVERSE order -- haven't read mail since last Thursday. Couldn't resist commenting on this! > > > Btw, in the sime-gen universe, who has > > been the most influential and respected female (forgive a dumb question, but > > I have not read every book or fanzine yet...)-- and by what title would she > > have been known, since Tuib is a male title, right? Muryin Farris and/or Risa Tigue who were contemporaries. Muryin was Sectuib in Zeor, and Risa Sectuib in Keon. They both changed their worlds for better or worse. In general, GENDER is unimportant in the S~G society/culture (unless reproduction is the point in question). The only part of your identity that counts in that time and place is (what we don't have a word for yet) Simeness or Genness and/or channel-ness and Order and Rating. Jenn wrote: > > > Who says? That's a bit of an assumption - that titles are split male/female. > Sectuib isn't. Nazther isn't. Sosectu isn't. Sounds to me like simelan > _doesn't_ split titles male/female. And she's right, Simelan doesn't which is what you'd expect. However, though a lot of Gen socities treat women like chattle or children, the QUALITY that signifies your membership in the society is your Gen-ness. Most Gen societies that lead the forging of Unity had less interest in gender. People who take a quality about you over which you have no CHOICE and use that quality to artificially limit your scope of function are people who lack COMPASSION. Compassion is founded on the ability to put yourself into the other person's place and feel what that place feels like -- the capacity to identify with another person, to set aside your signature of individuality and become another person with that person's priorities, hopes, dreams, ambitions and abilities (if only for the flash of an instant of imagination). Those who have and habitually exercise that ability just can't dismiss someone as a lesser being because of something irrelevant like gender. On the other hand, Sime-ness when known only as "it'll kill me if I don't kill it first" qualifies that animal as a nonperson. Remember, the underlying concept behind this universe is that these souls have lived many lives as Sime and many lives as Gen. By the time we start watching the universe develop, there isn't a character anywhere who doesn't have an internal referant for what it is to be the other type of person. The problem at first is that though the referent is there, the ability to access it isn't. So while these Gens are more compassionate (on average as a society) than us Ancients, and probably more compassionate than the junct society too, they are still wholly justified in regarding Simes as animals to be murdered as quickly as possible. It takes a lifetime among Simes for most Gens to internalize the aversion to execution by attrition. And it takes a lot for most Simes to come to where they experience an aversion to the Kill. The theory behind this structure of the fictional universe is that while we each individually bring with us a mass of karmic baggage, we are still primarily a product of our local environment and upbringing -- colored and highlighted by past incarnations maybe, but still living in the present. And in that present - gender doesn't count nearly as much as Simeness/Genness. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:44:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Rimon's Library -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Just met Karen Litman on AOL and cruised websites and instamessaged all over the map, and as far as I can tell all our links and sites are operational. However, when I cruised the webring, I drew a blank at OUT TERRITORY (the site on aol that has overflow from Visitor's Center) -- links to sf fandom. It is http://members.aol.com/ambrozeor -- Now there could be something wrong with my ring installation, but it was working a while back. I suggest any listfolk interested in our websites be sure you BOOKMARK or HOTLIST or FAVORITE LIST (or whatever your browser calls memorizing a URL) each of our sites individually. The ring is wondrous when it works. Also, if you haven't been to Tecton Central in a while, go there to the bottom of the front page, and check out the SF sites link on the bottom. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:30:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Not the webring's fault Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacqueline wrote, >However, when I cruised the webring, I drew a blank at OUT TERRITORY (the >site on aol that has overflow from Visitor's Center) -- links to sf fandom. > >It is http://members.aol.com/ambrozeor -- > >Now there could be something wrong with my ring installation, but it was >working a while back. I cannot get in trying to go straight there. AOL puts up a message saying "No such URL on this server." Someone on AOL had better check to see if AOL is having the same problem as the one GeoCities just fixed. What has happened is that all the college students have come back, and they are busy building, revising, or reinstalling their websites on these very popular servers. As a result, the systems are overloading. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: FOREVER KNIGHT Fanzines -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Expanded recipient data: cc: Deborah_Grace@xxxxxx.gov \ Internet: (deborah_grace@xxxxxx.gov) Listfolk: Here is a FOREVER KNIGHT fan who has no web browsing. Can anyone connect her with a LISTSERVE? DEBORAH - I'm posting this to our Virtual Selyn List to see if anyone has what you need. JL Deborah_Grace@xxxxxx.gov \ Internet: (deborah_grace@xxxxxx.gov) FOREVER KNIGHT Fanzines Hi - I am a FOREVER KNIGHT fan. Please send me a catalogue and ordering information for you FOREVER KNIGHT fanzines and any other FOREVER KNIGHT items you may have. Thank you. e-mail: deborah_grace@xxxxxx.gov I answered her briefly inviting her to our websites for FK Links, and this is what she replied: Hi Jacqueline - Thank you for replying so quickly. Unfortunately, I do not have a computer at home and this one at work is an old 286 that belongs in a museum. We only got e-mail up and running a few months ago. It does not have access to the Internet, so I cannot get to any of the FOREVER KNIGHT FanFic lists. That is why I need to rely on Fanzines. Sorry, but I won't be able to visit any of your webpages. Thanks anyway. Debbie Grace e-mail: deborah_grace@xxxxxx.gov - Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: No Subject Comments: cc: Margo Block -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: Got the following from AOL Fantasy Forum admin and thought you might like to cruise by and see it. Ms Lichtenberg, Hello! I am writing to inform you that your post re: Yarbo Vampires will appear on the main Fantasy Forum screen on Tuesday, September 16. Thank you! RELMmatrix Fantasy Fiction Forum Co-Leader - Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:43:40 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: forms of address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Cowan writes, >On the other hand, calling somebody just "Professor", without a >surname, is definitely lower-class-marked if not insulting. I remember >reading once that the disuse of "Professor" in the Midwest (and, a fortiori, >further west as well) was influenced by the use of the title for bordello >piano-players. > Ah-hah! My experience is in the Midwest and Florida, which might as well be Midwest, as well as Colorado and California. I like that story, even if it turns out to be apocryphal! Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:47:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Rimon's Library Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:53 PM 9/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >The link to the Library Page from Jacqueline's .j51.com is not working. > Darksypher came up again -- this is Monday at 2 p.m. in New Jersey. If > there's a direct address for the page, I don't have it. So Geocities may >still have a problem. Karen Litman The problem is that you have the page cached, Karen. Empty the caches on your browser unless you are using IE, which doesn't have an easy way to do that. Or just press "Reload" when you are at the page and Rimon's Library will come up. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:34:22 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Maureen Gibbins Subject: Yarbro post/new Voyager episodes In-Reply-To: <199709152122.RAA16605@xxxxxx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > > >Ms Lichtenberg, > >Hello! I am writing to inform you that your post re: Yarbo Vampires will >appear on the main Fantasy Forum screen on Tuesday, September 16. > >Thank you! > >RELMmatrix >Fantasy Fiction Forum Co-Leader Unfortunately, I don't belong to AOL. The post sounds intriguing. I just picked up Yarbro's newest hardcover and am looking forward to the weekend when I can devote some serious time to is. On another note, I'm interested in your reaction to the new Voyager episodes. Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Gene Roddenberry Maureen P. Gibbins Undergraduate Research Coordinator Howard Hughes Biology Education Initiative San Diego State University San Diego, CA 92182-4614 E-mail: mgibbins@xxxxxx.sdsu.edu Phone: 619-594-3432 Fax: 619-594-3590 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Forms of Address (Tony) In a message dated 97-09-15 10:55:02 EDT, you write: << I love Jean's fiction -- to me, HER Sarek and Amanda (including the fanzine series) are still the canonical ones, and Risa is one of my favorite characters. Margaret >> YES YES!!! CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Collaborate with John Updike and (maybe) win $100,000! Robyn writes: << Cool idea! Anybody want to try for $1000? (or $100,000)? --Robyn >> Responding belatedly to a Post dated 8/1/97: yes, it was fun! I participated; even sent in writing snippets, but didn't win anything. It was very interesting to see this story unfold. Clearly, Mystery writing differs from other forms (Romance, Sci-Fi, etc.) in more than just subject matter: I've concluded that there's a whole style and . . . mind-set?? . . . associated with crafting a good mystery. Something I need to learn more about! Suzanne P.S. I'm still hopin' on the 100 Grand, though!!!! :-) P.P.S. Did any of our people participate? Or win?? (I'm not familiar with all the names yet, so I might not have recognized one if someone from this ListServe had won a prize.) Bye for Now! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary C Arens Subject: Re: Clearing IE's cache >From PC World Sept 97 issue: Open Internet Explorer, choose View Options, click Advanced, click View Files, click Las Accessed column header to sort the cache contents in ascending date order, then select and delete files you don't anticipate viewing again. Or use MSIE Cache Explorer (Shareware - $20) lets you organize cache contents by domain so you can delete all the files from www.wasteoftime.com or by almost any other criteria. You can download it from ourworld.copuserve.com/homepages/M_Wolf/ or from www.pcworld.com/files I have no personal experience with this, I use Netscape. Mary @xxxxxx.~>-- Arensmc@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Forms of Address (Tony) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:47 PM 9/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-15 10:55:02 EDT, you write: > ><< > I love Jean's fiction -- to me, HER Sarek and Amanda (including the fanzine > series) are still the canonical ones, and Risa is one of my favorite > characters. > > Margaret > >> > >YES YES!!! > >CherylW Thanks for the egoboo. Now if you guys only sat in the editorial chairs at the major magazines.... Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Forms of address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CherylW replied >> >>However, I was watching America's Funniest Videos one night and a little = kid was on there talking to the host....the audience and the host roared with laughter becauset his four year old said "YES SIR" after every single question, etc. the host asked...never yes or yeah, but yes sir or no sir...= .I thought, but if you don't say that down here, their mama would pop their mouth and everyone else would be insulted! Very very...old mannered:) << I was going to stay out of this discussion, but this has compelled me to ad= d my comments. My husband went to military school down in Kansas and to th= is day, when he's working with someone he doesn't know very well he says "S= ir" or "Maam" very respectfully. (He's only 39 BTW) I think it's wonderfu= l he still retains these manners and I wish more people did. As for myself= , I kept my maiden name and added my husband's. However, I did not hyphena= te and I go by Mrs. Klumper whenever necessary. Even though I'm 33 I guess= you could say I'm old-fashioned. I'm a professional woman but I have no p= roblem at all with being called Mrs. (not that very many people do). Kandy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:58:57 +0100 Reply-To: cindy@xxxxxx.co.uk Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Stoner Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donna Halper wrote: > Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who > kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) Just to vote, I use Mrs., and took my husbands surname. However, my husband and I talked about this decision first. My father had 8 brothers, most with families, so his surname is well represented, but my husband is the only male to carry on his family name. We also felt that hyphenating was too cumbersome to burden a child with at school. On the issue of Mrs., I am proud to be married to my husband. After 10 years together (both dating and marriage) I still take pleasure in announcing to the world that we're together, and for me, using Mrs. is that announcement. :) Cheers Cindy Stoner ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:43:39 +0100 Reply-To: cindy@xxxxxx.co.uk Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Stoner Subject: Re: Clearing IE's cache MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can clear your cache, or an individual file from the properties option in IE (file menu, properties), under the navigation choice choose 'clear history'. Also, under properties, under advanced, choose 'view files' to see the history, or 'clear files' to effectively empty the cache. Hope that helps. Cheers Cindy Mary C Arens wrote: > > >From PC World Sept 97 issue: > > Open Internet Explorer, choose View Options, click Advanced, click View > Files, click Las Accessed column header to sort the cache contents in > ascending date order, then select and delete files you don't anticipate > viewing again. > > Or use MSIE Cache Explorer (Shareware - $20) lets you organize cache > contents by domain so you can delete all the files from > www.wasteoftime.com or by almost any other criteria. You can download it > from ourworld.copuserve.com/homepages/M_Wolf/ or from > www.pcworld.com/files > > I have no personal experience with this, I use Netscape. > > Mary @xxxxxx.~>-- > Arensmc@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:21:01 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: Collaborate with John Updike and (maybe) win $100,000! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I contributed some writing entries. Didn't win a daily prize. Still hoping for the $100,000. Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:06:00 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: FWD: State Mottos Here's a joke someone sent me. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- ALABAMA: Literacy ain't everything Ya want fries with dat? ALASKA: Come, freeze your butt off ARIZONA: Winter home to 150,000 snowbirds ARKANSAS: At least we're not Mississippi CALIFORNIA: The Granola State Nobody's actually from here Fast reloading lanes available The really long state COLORADO: Too wimpy to cross the mountains so we stopped here Official home of the winter ski bunny CONNECTICUT: Way too close to New York DELAWARE: You'll need a map to find us So close to Washington you can smell it FLORIDA: The Gunshine State Elephant Graveyard; where the old Republicans go to die Senior citizen discounts available Come, enjoy the humidity The snow capital of the US GEORGIA: Home of the Rednecks Gateway to Florida Confederate money welcome HAWAII: Sure, we've got Interstates... drive on over Book 'em Danno Tom Selik, Jack Lord, Don Ho - Paradise! Come, get lai-ed IDAHO: Ain't nothing here We don't care if you spell potato with an "e" Land of a billion "eyes" ILLINOIS: Land of the voting dead Gateway to Iowa INDIANA: Home of David Letterman IOWA: Just east of Omaha It's easy to spell KANSAS: Hayfever capital of the Midwest Dole slept here There's no place like home Ya want flat, we got flat KENTUCKY: Tobacco is a vegetable We're all related Gateway to Nashville LOUISIANA: Swim the beautiful Bayou Cancer Alley's just a name, and names will never hurt you MAINE: For Sale You can spit on Canada from here MARYLAND: If it weren't for Washington, you couldn't find us MASSACHUSETTS: Home of the young girls from Nantucket, also the home of Ted Kennedy, hmmmm... MICHIGAN: Land of the free, home of the Buick MINNESOTA: Not Sweden, but we try to act like it Sure beats Canada Land of 10,000 Flakes MISSISSIPPI: We're lucky we can spell it Why would you want to come here? MISSOURI: Gateway to Kansas Here's mine, Show Me yours We're better than Illinois MONTANA: Land of the Big Sky, and very little else We've got lots of 10'x10' shacks in the woods It's where you're wanted. At least our cows are sane. NEBRASKA: More corn than Kansas Go to Kansas, turn north NEVADA: More weirdos than Alaska (warmer too) 2 words - Death Valley 3:5 you'll leave broke We have our own nuclear testing site NEW HAMPSHIRE: Like Old Hampshire, only newer About as exciting as Vermont NEW JERSEY: You have the right to remain silent, You have the right to an attorney... Tell 'em Guido sent ya NEW MEXICO: Lizards make excellent pets We have reservations Alien Welcome Center - Roswell NEW YORK: At least we're not New Jersey! We're more than a big city; we're a state Like we CARE about a motto English spoken here; sometimes NORTH CAROLINA: Five million people; Fifteen last names We're bigger than South Carolina NORTH DAKOTA: The OTHER South Dakota OHIO: Don't judge us by Cleveland Proud polluters of Lake Erie We're easy to spell OKLAHOMA: We're OK, you're NOT! I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto OREGON: As pretty as California but not as weird We're not named after a musical instrument You can see the sunset from here PENNSYLVANIA: Cook with coal Free lube job with oil change RHODE ISLAND: Size ain't everything Nobody famous came from Rhode Island SOUTH CAROLINA: Just south of North Carolina SOUTH DAKOTA: Closer than North Dakota TENNESSEE: The Educashun State Thank goodness we've still got Elvis A great fixer-upper TEXAS: Si Hablo Ingles See, EVERYTHING is bigger in Texas! UTAH: Our Jesus is better than your Jesus At least our sheep can't talk VERMONT: Bet ya can't name 2 of our towns VIRGINIA: Please don't confuse us with West Virginia! WASHINGTON: We like our state, so STAY OUT! WEST VIRGINIA: Where "family values" has a different meaning WISCONSIN: Land of funny accents. Say "Cheeeese" WYOMING: Where men are lonely and sheep are scared --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:11:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Zhag&Tonyo -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: Yesterday, Jean sent me the additional notes on her two musician characters that developed over Worldcon, and today I got idiotically brave and decided to post that file on Rimon's Library (since it returned to existance yesterday) using my new upgraded software. I've spent about 4 hours making myself hysterical and crazy. Somehow in the process of everything, I managed to screw up the Zeor Visitor's Center (it wouldn't load the background and it lost the LINK TO THE WEBRING stuff too, and every time I put one back, the other disappeared. ) At this moment I'm not totally certain Rimon's Library still has its webring link. I restored the Visitor's Center using the old WinWord7 on the notebook. It now has background AND webring link (I can only hope that link still works!) . I checked Rimon's Library and I found Jean's Zhag and Tonyo article with the additions had made it up there. But I didn't restore that one with the notebook. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:21:05 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Borg vs. ID4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.EA0361C0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.EA0361C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any thoughts on what would happen if the aliens from Independence Day came upon a planet assimilated by the Borg? who would win? ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.EA0361C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have any thoughts on what = would happen if the aliens from Independence Day came upon a planet = assimilated by the Borg? who would win?

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.EA0361C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:12:43 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C3.BED9FE60" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C3.BED9FE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use the "Mrs" and "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who often call. I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely a Ms and always have been, so when the solicitors call and say, "Could I speak to Mr. or Mrs. Pollack?" I reply, "There is no Mr. or Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's the absolute truth. ---------- > From: qamh > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: Mrs,Ms,Miss > Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 1:45 AM > > I also try to avoid titles, Legally i'mstill mariad but 20yrs seperated. > Because i dont give a title i usually get Miss. And just toadd to it my > stage name is "Madam Zoe". This was given to me by an announcer who had > troble just saying "Here's Zoe", She HAD to have another name to add to > it. I fought it for years but it finally stuck > > Zoe ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C3.BED9FE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I use the "Mrs" and = "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who often = call.
I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely a Ms and = always have been, so when the solicitors call and say, "Could I = speak to Mr. or Mrs. Pollack?" I reply, "There is no Mr. or = Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's the absolute truth. =


----------
> From: qamh <qamh@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: Mrs,Ms,Miss
> Date: Monday, = September 15, 1997 1:45 AM
>
> I also try to avoid titles, = Legally i'mstill mariad but 20yrs seperated.
> Because i dont give = a title i usually get Miss. And just toadd to it my
> stage name = is "Madam Zoe". This was given to me by an announcer who = had
> troble just saying "Here's Zoe", She HAD to have = another name to add to
> it. I fought it for years but it finally = stuck
>
> Zoe

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C3.BED9FE60-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:16:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: Rimon's library is back MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.3DBE6E00" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.3DBE6E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have my own theory about Darksiphor: I think that briefly, on the Web, there was a temporal/spacial anomaly that gave us a glimpse into an alternate universe: the Darksiphor site is: what would have been on Geocities at that web site, if the Sime Gen universe.... had never been written. Scary thought, isn't it? I wonder if any science fiction author has ever tackled this particular idea (alternate universes or time travel in a Web setting)? ---------- > From: Jean Lorrah > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: Rimon's library is back > Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 1:10 PM > > Everyone will be pleased to know that Geocities has restored the Rimon > Farris Memorial Library to its rightful place. I have received no > response from Darksiphor, but at least s/he did receive a polite notice > that it would happen. Jean ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.3DBE6E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have my own theory about Darksiphor: = I think that briefly, on the Web, there was a temporal/spacial anomaly = that gave us a glimpse into an alternate universe: the Darksiphor site = is: what would have been on Geocities at that web site, if the Sime Gen = universe.... had never been written. Scary thought, isn't it?

I = wonder if any science fiction author has ever tackled this particular = idea (alternate universes or time travel in a Web = setting)?

----------
> From: Jean Lorrah <A21711F@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: Rimon's library is back
> = Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 1:10 PM
>
> Everyone will = be pleased to know that Geocities has restored the Rimon
> Farris = Memorial Library to its rightful place.  I have received no
> = response from Darksiphor, but at least s/he did receive a polite = notice
> that it would happen.  Jean

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.3DBE6E00-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: S~G kid songs (was: Men vs. Women on music) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.59FF1880" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.59FF1880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Row, row row your boat gently down the stream. Throw the Sectuib overboard LIfe is but a dream! ---------- > From: John Cowan > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: S~G kid songs (was: Men vs. Women on music) > Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 10:43 AM > > Jenn Vesperman wrote: > > > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > > What shall we do with the juncted channel? > > Ear-lie in the morning? > > Lock her up in the Final Year House, > Lock her up in the Final Year House, > Lock her up in the Final Year House, > Ear-lie in the morning! > > (Too grim, but it's what came to mind.) > > Some more: > > My Donor lies over the ocean, > My Donor lies over the sea, > My Donor lies over the ocean, > Oh send back my Donor to me! Etc. > > Jak and Jil went up the hill > To have themselves a transfer, > But Jak fell down and broke his crown > And Jil augmented after! (Distect nursery rhyme) > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org > e'osai ko sarji la lojban ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.59FF1880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Row, row row your boat
gently down = the stream.
Throw the Sectuib overboard
LIfe is but a = dream!

----------
> From: John Cowan <cowan@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: S~G kid songs (was: Men vs. Women on = music)
> Date: Monday, September 15, 1997 10:43 AM
> =
> Jenn Vesperman wrote:
>
> > What shall we do = with the juncted channel?
> > What shall we do with the juncted = channel?
> > What shall we do with the juncted channel?
> = > Ear-lie in the morning?
>
> Lock her up in the Final = Year House,
> Lock her up in the Final Year House,
> Lock = her up in the Final Year House,
> Ear-lie in the morning!
> =
> (Too grim, but it's what came to mind.)
>
> Some = more:
>
> My Donor lies over the ocean,
> My Donor = lies over the sea,
> My Donor lies over the ocean,
> Oh send = back my Donor to me!  Etc.
>
> Jak and Jil went up the = hill
> To have themselves a transfer,
> But Jak fell down = and broke his crown
> And Jil augmented after!  (Distect = nursery rhyme)
>
> --
> John Cowan =      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan =             &= nbsp;cowan@xxxxxx.
> =             &= nbsp;           e'= osai ko sarji la lojban

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C4.59FF1880-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:06:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C2.DF710020" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C2.DF710020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: "Ms", and marriage. This brings up the issue of keeping or giving up one's name at marriage. In the Sime Gen universe, am I right that they keep their family name rather than changing it? Suppose a woman named Hogan marries a man named Farris. If her married name were Farris, people would assume her to be a Farris by birth, with all of the consequences of this assumption. This would be especially dangerous Out-Territory, where she could not be zlinned. People would assume she had the Farris abilities. ---------- > From: Donna Halper > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a Borg > Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 11:43 PM > > it was recently asked: > ><< Miss Ryan and her husband, investment banker Jack Ryan >> > > > > > >Okay, I thought the word "Miss" was only used with unmarried women. How does > >that really work? > > In media historically, before the term "Ms" was created, actresses had stage > names and a stage persona to protect their privacy. They were often called > Miss even though in their private life, they might be married, since studios > believed that audiences wanted the fantasy that the actress was single and > waiting to meet them... To this day, some newspapers hold to the old custom > of referring to an actress as Miss. (Btw, did simes and gens ever > distinguish in title between married and single women? If so, why???) > > What always bothered me about our custom is that men were called Mister no > matter what, while women's status and title changed depending on whether she > was married or single. That is why some women began using what was supposed > to be the neutral "Ms", but which became mainly a title used by first-wave > feminists of the baby boomer generation... it never did catch on with the > vast majority of people in America. I still use it, since I kept my name > when I married and since I have never felt my value or status as a person > has anything to do with whether or not I have a husband. A lot of magazines > and newspapers are not sure what to call women anymore-- some don't use any > title, others call the woman Mrs. if she is married-- whether that is her > preference or not. Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who > kept her name when she married? (Just curious...) ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C2.DF710020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re: "Ms", and marriage. =

This brings up the issue of keeping or giving up one's name at = marriage. In the Sime Gen universe, am I right that they keep their = family name rather than changing it?

Suppose a woman named Hogan = marries a man named Farris. If her married name were Farris, people = would assume her to be a Farris by birth, with all of the consequences = of this assumption. This would be especially dangerous Out-Territory, = where she could not be zlinned. People would assume she had the Farris = abilities.

----------
> From: Donna Halper <dlh@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: Re: Leonardo Da Vinci Meets a = Borg
> Date: Saturday, September 13, 1997 11:43 PM
> =
> it was recently asked:
> ><< Miss Ryan and her = husband, investment banker Jack Ryan >>
> >
> = >
> >Okay, I thought the word "Miss" was only used = with unmarried women. How does
> >that really work?
> =
> In media historically, before the term "Ms" was = created, actresses had stage
> names and a stage persona to = protect their privacy.  They were often called
> Miss even = though in their private life, they might be married, since = studios
> believed that audiences wanted the fantasy that the = actress was single and
> waiting to meet them...  To this = day, some newspapers hold to the old custom
> of referring to an = actress as Miss.  (Btw, did simes and gens ever
> distinguish = in title between married and single women?  If so, why???)
> =
> What always bothered me about our custom is that men were = called Mister no
> matter what, while women's status and title = changed depending on whether she
> was married or single. =  That is why some women began using what was supposed
> to be = the neutral "Ms", but which became mainly a title used by = first-wave
> feminists of the baby boomer generation... it never = did catch on with the
> vast majority of people in America. =  I still use it, since I kept my name
> when I married and = since I have never felt my value or status as a person
> has = anything to do with whether or not I have a husband.  A lot of = magazines
> and newspapers are not sure what to call women = anymore-- some don't use any
> title, others call the woman Mrs. = if she is married-- whether that is her
> preference or not. =  Am I the only Ms. on the list, or the only woman who
> kept = her name when she married?  (Just curious...)

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC2C2.DF710020-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Elizabeth Sheeks Subject: Re: State Mottos South Carolina: Just South of North Carolina... Do you know just how many times I've said that? Too many times to count. Actually, if I had 5 cents for all the times I've said, "Right under North Carolina. Do you even know where NORTH Carolina is?" I'd be rich. LS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Zhag&Tonyo NOT on site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:11 PM 9/16/97 -0500, Jacqueline wrote: > >Listfolk: > >I checked Rimon's Library and I found Jean's Zhag and Tonyo article with the >additions had made it up there. No, it hasn't. What is there is the old version, about half as long as what I sent Jacqueline yesterday, so don't bother to look at it till Jacqueline has time to upload the new version, which has LOTS of new ideas, including plenty of angst. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:12 PM 9/16/97 -0400, Lioness wrote: >I use the "Mrs" and "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who often >call. >I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely a Ms and always have >been, so when the solicitors call and say, "Could I speak to Mr. or Mrs. >Pollack?" I reply, "There is no Mr. or Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's the >absolute truth. I do the same thing. Mr. and Mrs. Lorrah are my parents. Mr. Lorrah died in 1992 and Mrs. Lorrah lives in Florida. Neither is available at my telephone number in Kentucky, so I also am telling the absolute truth when I tell the solicitors that there are no such people here. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:54:39 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: FWD: State Mottos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >ILLINOIS: Land of the voting dead On a similar theme: People who don't believe in life after death should come to Chicago on Election Day. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Collaborate with John Updike and (maybe) win $100,000! << I contributed some writing entries. Didn't win a daily prize. Still hoping for the $100,000. Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net >> I saw in my local paper a couple of days ago that this contest had ended and that the finished "novel" was either available on the Web, or would be available soon. The biggest complaint the article said was that the main character never really got off the ground into a believable being. Having not read the Updike site, I can not comment personally. ----- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: Collaborate with John Updike and (maybe) win $100,000! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 22:51 09/16/1997 -0400, you wrote: >I saw in my local paper a couple of days ago that this contest had ended and >that the finished "novel" was either available on the Web, or would be >available soon. The biggest complaint the article said was that the main >character never really got off the ground into a believable being. Having >not read the Updike site, I can not comment personally. ----- Karen >Litman > There was a *lot* of description and a pretty convoluted plot. I thought the main character, Miss Tasso Polk, was the most well drawn of the characters. But it was more like the type of mystery where the characters aren't as important as the plot. I wish they had set apart the parts John Updike wrote at the start and end just so I could have seen what he had tried to set up and what elements he chose from the middle to tie into and make sense at the end. The story did a lot of wandering, I thought. I've seen some round robin fanfic that was more interesting and better plotted. Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: State Mottos I have heard another one for Minnesota: Cold Nose, Warm Heart --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: TECH: High Speed Connections Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" While the article below is about America Online, it explains why so many of us cannot get connections from our Internet services at the high speeds they advertise. I have a 28.8 modem, and my university connection supports 28.8. However, I have NEVER connected at 28.8. Once in a while I get a 21.6 connection, and one time only it connected at 24.8, but 90% of the time it connects at 14.4, presumably because of the traffic. Mid-afternoon and early evening, I still frequently get a busy signal. Jean 56K? Not for America Online by Brian McWilliams, PC World News Radio September 16, 1997 America Online was one of the first Internet service providers to support 56-kbps modem connections. But a limitation in the AOL client software is preventing subscribers from receiving the full benefit of the faster connections. Geraldine MacDonald, vice president of AOLnet Operations, confirmed that AOL version 3 for Windows 95 does not allow the PC serial port to be opened higher than 57.6 kbps. While that may seem more than enough for 28.8 and even 56-kbps modems, modem manufacturers actually recommend that the serial port be set to 115.2 kbps for optimal data throughput. According to MacDonald, the 57.6 kbps limit is left over from AOL's early days. "We fixed our 3.0 client so we could get into a high-speed field trial--and remember, we aren't in high-speed production yet," says MacDonald. "Most of the features that we need are being put into our next client. As we determine during the field trial the features that we need, they're being added into client requirements that we're developing now." By forcing subscriber's PCs to use the slower port speed, AOL is effectively throttling back their 56-kbps download speeds by an average of 20 percent, according to telecommunications analyst John Navas. Navas says that setting the PC's serial port to 115.2 kbps allows modems to compress Web data and achieve throughput rates considerably higher than their connect rate. This compression can only occur on content that's not already compressed, such as e-mail, text files, or newsgroup articles. So, for zip files and JPEG graphics, which make up the bulk of most downloads, AOL users with V.34 and 56K connections won't be affected. But Navas says their ability to download uncompressed data could be hurt by as much as 40 percent. "This has a modest but not massive throttling effect on 28.8-kbps modems," says Navas. "Now, it's a different deal if a guy has an x2 or K56flex modem running at let's say 48 kbps. Again, the compressed files, no problem, they'll still be able to run at 57.6. But now the compressible data, instead of being hurt by about 20 percent, would be hurt by maybe 40 to 45 percent because it could run just that much faster if the serial port speed could handle it, it could nearly max out a 115.2 connection." MacDonald of AOLnet denied suggestions that AOL might be intentionally throttling back user's modem throughput to save network bandwidth. "We're going up to high speed with a lot of effort and expense on our part and the last thing we want to do is to limit anyone's connection speed," says MacDonald. Navas nonetheless says that as AOL contemplates rolling out 56K access beyond the field trials, it will have to contend with much greater demands on its network infrastructure. "The amount of data in a given pipe of a given size, means you get less users per pipe and that decreases the capacity," says Navas. "A T-1 line is 1.5 megabits per second, so if you do the simple arithmetic you can handle only half as many people at 28.8 kbps as you can at 14.4. So if you can find a way to limit their speed, then you don't have to have twice as many pipes to handle the users with acceptable speed." MacDonald wouldn't give a release date for AOL version 4, which will support the higher throughput rates. Nor would she specify when the online service will conclude its 56K field trials. Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:02:45 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: TECH: High Speed Connections << While the article below is about America Online, it explains why so many of us cannot get connections from our Internet services at the high speeds they advertise. I have a 28.8 modem, and my university connection supports 28.8. However, I have NEVER connected at 28.8. Once in a while I get a 21.6 connection, and one time only it connected at 24.8, but 90% of the time it connects at 14.4, presumably because of the traffic. Mid-afternoon and early evening, I still frequently get a busy signal. Jean >> I'm still using a 14.4 modem. With the 386 processor my mail downloads through AOL version 2.5 usually took 3 to 5 minutes. Using the 486 computer with the same modem but the 3.0 AOL version, the download of mail takes about a minute. Then again the first computer running 2.5 only had 2 meg of RAM, and the 486 has 16 meg, so I suspect each case is very different. I'm still quite happy with what is happening, and right now have no desire for higher speed connections...though I can't even find a 28.8 modem on the local market. I have seen 33.3 or higher for sale though. --- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:47:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: FWD: Apartment for Rent (Joke) Here's another joke I received. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >Subject: FWD: Apartment for Rent > >This is good... > >-------------------------------------- >Date: 9/6/97 6:47 PM >From: Traycoff, Tim >> > A proper man met a beautiful girl and agreed to spend the night with >> > her for $500. So they did. Before he left, he told her that he did >> > not have any cash with him, but that he would have his secretary write >> > a check and mail it to her, calling the payment "RENT FOR APARTMENT." >> > >> > On the way to the office, he regretted what he had done, realizing >> > that the whole event was not worth the price. So he had his secretary >> > send a check for $250 and enclosed a note: >> > >> > Dear Madam: >> > >> > Enclosed find a check in the amount of $250 for rent of your >> > apartment. I am not sending the amount agreed upon because when I >> > rented the apartment I was under the impression that: >> > (1) it had never been occupied; >> > (2) that there was plenty of heat; >> > (3) that it was small enough to make me cozy and at home . >> > . >> > Last night, however, I found out that it had been previously occupied, >> > that there wasn't any heat, and that it was entirely too large. >> > >> > Upon receipt of the note, the girl immediately returned the check for >> > $250 with the following note: >> > >> > Dear Sir, >> > First of all, I cannot understand how you expect a beautiful apartment >> > to remain unoccupied indefinitely. As for the heat, there is plenty >> > of it if you know how to turn it on. Regarding the space, the >> > apartment is indeed of regular size, but if you don't have enough >> > furniture to fill it, please don't blame the landlord. --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:51:38 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: FWD:Pig Psychology Here's something else someone sent me. --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >Subject: Pig Psychology JF > >Hee hee hee hee.....draw the pig!!!! DRAW THE PIG!!!! > >it's hilarous... > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> THIS IS QUITE INTERESTING! YOU MUST NOT SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU DRAW >>>>> YOUR PICTURE. NO CHEATING, NOW. YOU WILL FIND THIS VERY >>>>> INTERESTING IF YOU DRAW YOUR PICTURE FIRST! >>>>> >>>>> On a blank piece of paper draw a pig. Then scroll down and read the >>>>> interpretation of your pig!! >>>>> >>>>> Draw your pig first! And don't look at the next part until you are >>>>> done! It won't be fun if you look first. >>>>> >>>>> ******************************************************* > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> The pig serves as a useful test of the personality traits of the drawer.. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> If the pig is drawn: >>>>> >>>>> Toward the top of the paper, you are positive and optimistic. >>>>> Toward the middle, you are a realist. >>>>> Toward the bottom, you are pessimistic, and have a tendency to >>>>> behave negatively. >>>>> >>>>> Facing left, you believe in tradition, are friendly, and >>>>> remember dates (birthdays, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> Facing right, you are innovative and active, but don't have a strong >>>>> sense of family, nor do you remember dates. >>>>> >>>>> Facing front (looking at you), you are direct, enjoy playing >>>>> devil's advocate and neither fear nor avoid discussions. >>>>> >>>>> With many details, you are analytical, cautious, and distrustful. >>>>> >>>>> With few details, you are emotional and naive, you care little >>>>> for details and are a risk-taker. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> With less than 4 legs showing, you are insecure or are living >>>>> through a period of major change. >>>>> >>>>> With 4 legs showing, you are secure, stubborn, and stick to >>>>> your ideals. >>>>> >>>>> The size of the ears indicates how good a listener you are. >>>>> The bigger the better. >>>>> >>>>> The length of the tail indicates the quality of your sex >>>>> life!!!! (And again more is better!) > >-------------------------------|----------------------------------- >Alison Choy | >Sales & Mktg Mgr. | Pointgrrl, >e-Media, LLC | Stamford, CT Webgrrls >(203) 967-4330 | > | >http://www.e1.com | http://webgrrls.maagnum.com > | > > > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:11:44 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: FWD: Apartment for Rent (Apology) It appears some people may have taken offense at this joke. Different people react to things differently. It wasn't something that bothered _me_, so I just didn't _think_ that it might offend some others. Sorry. I'll try to think about how others might react first. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:28:03 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Colleen Bellairs." Subject: Hi All Hi Everyone - About time I poked my head in here; it's been about forever! I've been lurking for the past few months but I figure it's past time to let folks know I'm still around. The last time I posted, it was as Cbtreks; I've moved this mailing list to another screenname - Distect. (Which ought to give y'all a clue as to which group I identify with most when I read the S~G novels. ) The best thing that happened to me all summer was that I got to go (practically at the last minute) to ShoreLeave - where I got to meet Jacqueline *and* Joan Winston, as well as Margaret C. (Hi Margaret! I know we didn't get to talk for long, but I enjoyed meeting you. And Jacqueline, it was wonderful meeting you and talking wtih you, listening to you - folks, I spent part of Friday evening literally sitting at Jacqueline's feet, listening to her talk about writing, among other things. I hope you all get that chance some time.) Actually, Jacqueline and Joan's panel was the only con thing I did, other than spend time in the dealers' room. (I did pop in to the "MST3K Trek" showing but had to leave before it started to make it to a private party.) I spent most of the weekend with the "Star Trek ladies" that I've been talking with on line for almost a year now, talking and reading zines. How wonderful to finally have faces to put with names, voices to put with words! Four days wasn't nearly long enough. I definitely want to go next year. Also, I'm hoping for Darkover next year as well, though this year doesn't seem very likely. BTW, does anyone know why so many major cons are in the Baltimore area? Seems like almost every big con that I'd like to attend - including a few new ones - is in Baltimore - but no one seems to know why. Also - anyone in this group watch The Sentinel? It might be interesting to Sime~Gen fans, since it's centered on the senses. And when it's done right (as in the 3rd season premiere - and in fanfic - some of us have been wondering if a fanfic writer wrote the 3rd season premiere ), I think it qualifies as Intimate Adventure. Finally, I sorry to see that Mary Lou Mendum has left the Tecton Star (our APA). Mary Lou, you always have such interesting, articulate contributions; I'll miss you. (You're still on this list, right?) Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:15:47 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Colleen Bellairs." Subject: Re: Ms.-Mrs.-Miss/Professor/Sir-Ma'am Donna writes, >That is why some women began using what was supposed >to be the neutral "Ms", but which became mainly a title used by first-wave >feminists of the baby boomer generation... it never did catch on with the >vast majority of people in America. I remember when I was about 11 or 12 (this would be in 1974, 1975), our preacher was totally against the use of the term "Ms." He certainly did not believe in equal rights for women, thought that any form of women's lib was evil and thought that there was something very wrong with a woman not wanting people to know if she was married or not. That was the same year that I found out that in the 17th century, both married and unmarried women in the Colonies were called "Mistress" (for which both "Mrs." and "Miss" are contractions) and no one could know if a woman was married or not just by her title. "Mistress" served more or less the same purpose that "Ms." does now. I never did buy into the idea that the use of "Ms." was somehow evil, certainly not after finding out that an ambiguous title for women was nothing new. (And of course, as anyone who's lived in the South can affirm, "Ms" - is nothing new down there. It's been in use for years. Of course, in the South, they spell it "Miz". ) As far as Ms. never catching on with the vast majority of people in America - I don't think that's strictly true. It depends on if we're discussing a professional situation or not. As a secretary (right now I work for a law firm but have worked in health care and construction in the past) I would never address a letter to a woman using any title but Ms., unless she used a different title first. Most American women use Ms. professionally. I've found that in other countries, women are more likely to use Miss or Mrs (especially in Asia and the Middle East), but often don't use a title at all. Of course, in many countries, it's still not common to see women in professional positions, and most of our correspondence is to men. (I work in the Intellectual Property department; we handle lots of foreign trademarks and patents for our clients.) I can't tell you how many times my paralegal has received mail addressed to Mr. Trina M.! Professor . . . I've been trying to remember if we ever called our Professors that when I was in college. I attended Hope College, in Holland Michigan from 1981 to 1983. It's a very small school - I think there were a little over 1200 students when I was there - and very few of the professors had less than a doctorate. The few that did were working on their doctorate while they taught. I think I addressed all my professors as "Dr.", except for my advisor who was known to everyone as Doc, and my first year Spanish teacher whom we addressed as Senora S. (She was from Spain; I can't remember if she had a doctorage or not but I believe she did.) I remember this discussion coming up on another list I was subbed to for awhile and the response was quite varied. Some people said they never addressed any of their instructors as Professor while others used Professor if the instructor wasn't a doctor. Most of the students on that list said that they addressed their younger instructors by first name. That's something we never did at Hope! It doesn't sit well with me, either. I understand that college instructors are not parents or parent substitutes - but the idea of addressing one's teacher (at any academic level) by their first name gives me the same sense of unease that I feel when I hear friends address their parents by their first names. It just seems wrong. (I just remembered one instructor we addressed as Mrs. - she was a P.E. instructor and I think we addressed the other P.E. instructor as Mr.) Sir-Ma'am: These forms of address were very common when I lived in the Dallas area between 1985 and 1989 and I believe they still are. Kids down there are taught to use them as a form of respect. What I always found funny is that parents use these terms with their children when they're disciplining them. It cracks me up to hear my sisters (one still lives in Texas, they other lives here in Indiana now but picked up a lot of "Texas-isms") say, for example, "No ma'am! You put that back right now!" When I was 10, I went to a small Christian school - this was in Michigan - and kids who used Ma'am or Sir when addressing the teachers would get demerits. The principal assumed that when kids used those terms, they were using them in a sarcastic manner, not in a respectful one. That was rather odd, come to think of it, because the principal was from the South. It caused a few problems, since there was a family from the South there, and those kids automatically used Sir and Ma'am. I don't remember how that issue was resolved. "Texas-isms" reminds me of something else. My sister in Texas has a son and a daughter. Often she addresses Adam as "son", which is something I don't remember hearing up here. But I don't have any brothers and most of the friends that I had as a kid didn't have brothers, either. None of my cousins was called "Son" instead of by their name. Is this a Texas thing, a Southern thing, or something that's done all over the country that I just never picked up on? (I'm not surprised Peggy picked up on it, if it is a Texas thing - she may have grown up in Michigan and Indiana, but you should hear her Texas accent! ) Think I talked enough for one night? My fingers sure think so! Talk to y'all later - Colleen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: FWD: Apartment for Rent (Apology) On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:11:44 -0400 Larry P Ulrey writes: >It appears some people may have taken offense at this joke. Different >people react to things differently. It wasn't something that bothered >_me_, so I just didn't _think_ that it might offend some others. >Sorry. I'll try to think about how others might react first. > While I wasn't offended by this joke, I felt that it was in questionable taste and should have had an ADULT (or something) label in the subject. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:44:43 -0500 Jean Lorrah writes: >At 05:12 PM 9/16/97 -0400, Lioness wrote: >>I use the "Mrs" and "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who >often >>call. >>I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely a Ms and always >have >>been, so when the solicitors call and say, "Could I speak to Mr. or >Mrs. >>Pollack?" I reply, "There is no Mr. or Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's >the >>absolute truth. > >I do the same thing. Mr. and Mrs. Lorrah are my parents. Mr. Lorrah >died >in 1992 and Mrs. Lorrah lives in Florida. Neither is available at my >telephone number in Kentucky, so I also am telling the absolute truth >when I >tell the solicitors that there are no such people here. Jean > Why didn't I think of that? On the other hand, some employees of companies with whom I do do business still use Mr or Mrs when they call. I correct them everytime, but they still persist. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:11:17 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: B5Vs.Voyager -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: Rushing off to another dentist appoint, I wanted to leave you with the following thought -- This may turn up in one of my columns because it's about INTIMATE ADVENTURE. The second Voyager of this season -- where B'ellana is having a really really bad day -- seems to me to be Intimate Adventure to perfection. But it contrasts with B5's "victory is better than peace" theme too, and connects with Sime~Gen's themes. Janeway says to 7of9 - "Acts of unexpected Compassion are common among our group. That's one of the ways we define our group." Contrast this with the Sheridan quote featured in the Sept/Oct. column -- Sept is posted by now, and Oct coming up in two weeks with the second half of that column. Now, true, VOYAGER is a ghastly mess - dreadfully uneven, trapped inside that horrid tv format of the "anthology show" which makes the fiction seem meaningless, etc etc -- but these two shows do, I think define each of the series they belong to. I'm too involved in this poor tooth of mine to really get all this synthesized, but I feel there's a lot of stuff to be thought on these subjects and I'll get around to it. Meanwhile, I just reread my May '97 column on the signature traits of the Master of anything. I think there are some important points there to contrast/compare Janeway and Sheridan in terms of Mastery. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:TECH: JL's AdventuresInCyberspace -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: After I posted Jean's update of the Zhag&Tony background paper to Rimon's Library, I discovered broken links in both the Library and the Visitor's Center caused by two different pieces of software. That's why you still saw the shorter, older file instead of the one I posted. It got its name arbitrarily changed on upload. I think it's there now. I uploaded another index version this morning, and I can only hope the link remains unbroken. The newer version of the FTP software hides all its options menues in different looking places and kept changing the names of files I uploaded without my knowledge or consent. I also managed - while fooling with it - to delete some files from the Server that I hadn't realized had been deleted . I also installed the patch that Microsoft is distributing to get WinWord8 up to speed on webpage editing. Whereupon WinWord8 refused (flatly and absolutely) to accept the code for the webring. Every time I added the webring, it took it away and broke the link to Kaas's beautiful background. I'd get the webring in, and the background disappeared. Then vice versa. There are two ways to insert html code directly in files using WinWord7 and WinWord8. In 7 they both work. In 8 neither does. That's the bottom line after about 6 hours of struggling. So I tackled learning to edit webpages with the other Microsoft product, Front Page 97. It's got nifty stuff and I'm excited about the potential, but following the directions in the online Help is hopeless. The program works fine for all the code on the page -- except the webring code and it, too, changes the name of the background supplying file so the background disappears. I've come to hate that standard gray. However, I finally discovered a method (which isn't in the Help files) of how to force it to accept the webring code. I IMPORTED A TEXT FILE -- having stored the correct webring code customized for the page I was working on to a notepad file. On IMPORT A TEXT FILE menue screen there's an option for "AS HTML" which when you click it, inserts the code in such a way that it doesn't disappear when you save the file. At this writing, I'm not sure I've got this whipped yet. I've got to check it again but that may be next week. This tooth has begun to hurt again and I've got an emergency apt with the dentist this afternoon, right about the time Kerry Lindemann-Schaefer is due to show up. Right now she's on the road somewhere and there's no way to contact her. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: WORK:Differences Btw Pro and Fan fic -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Workshoppers; Midst of everything, I haven't time to get this written up in detail, but I wanted to lay this thought on you for discussion and consideration. I've been urging the S~G fanfic writers to formulate their work to include the relevant BACKGROUND in each piece they write for web posting, and perhaps I left them with the impression that the BACKGROUNDING is the only difference between fan and pro writing. This is relevant to the discussion we did last spring here where I came up with my analogy of "conduits" that the fiction delivery system makes a certain size and shape and forces commercial writers to shape their fiction to fit the conduits. The more I've thought of things that way, the better that analogy seems to me. Adding in the relevant BACKGROUNDING is only one of the ways to make your fanfic fit a commercial conduit. There is one other, much more difficult, thing that must be done before a single word is written -- and sometimes before the IDEA is born. The deliberate conscious intent of the writer of the story has to be focused on ADVERTISING that background using the loathsome Madison Avenue techniques that readers and viewers are most familiar with. You have to structure your commercial fiction to "SELL" your story's background to the reader as "ENTERTAINING". That's what editors/producers are looking for when choosing among the wealth of submissions, finding the one out of hundreds they will put money into distributing. The more obvious and firm-handed, slick and subtle but powerful your AD COPY FOR YOUR BACKGROUND -- always couched in SHOW DON'T TELL -- the more commercially viable your fiction. Now that ad copy has to go on Page One of your novel, or parag one of your shorter story. Remember, way back last winter when we did a homework assignment (maybe it was last fall) on this workshop in which I focused your attention on watching commercials, looking to master the SHOW DON'T TELL methods. That was in connection with the overall plotting and structuring of a piece of fiction, but this was the real point of the exercise that I am only just now getting around to mentioning. To commercialize fanfiction, you must add in the background in such a way that it's all in SHOW and not in TELL, and then you must SELL that background to the reader right there in the very first words. And that SELLING aspect to casting the opening of a story is where most beginners make their fatal mistake that gets the form rejections. The assumption most beginning writers make is that what interests them personally is in fact intrinsically interesting. Commercial fiction vendors do not make that assumption. (Except possibly deep inside the well defined genre categories such as Romance (which is very much like fanfic in that the assumption is that anyone reading a romance is interested in romance and therefore the writer doesn't have to explain what it is about romance that's interesting.)) Nor do the great artists in any field. In fact, the more personally interesting something is to an artist, the less likely it is to be of any interest to anyone else. Things interest you because of who you are - and you are unique. The substance of commercial art focuses on the myriad elements we have in common. The more widely interesting a thing is, the less INTENSELY interesting it will be to any given individual. That's why television is so bland compared to books - it's aimed at a broader audience. Thus it is less particularized, less personalized. The thing that makes any fiction viable as commercial fiction is the broadening of the "reach" of the art. There are two ways to do that -- to choose a SUBJECT that is a focus of public concern at the moment, and to ADVERTISE that subject with the glamorizing tools of Madison Avenue so that even people who are not particularly interested will stop, stare, and become absorbed or at least diverted for a while. All the fanfiction we have posted (and that we published in the fanzines) is constructed on the assumption that the reader is ALREADY consumed with an avid interest in the subject. None of that fiction (except ONLY GOOD SIME and a prior version of ICY NAGER) make a serious advertising effort, and even GOOD SIME and IN don't do a hard sell on the background. HOUSE OF ZEOR is pure, nothing but, hard sell on the background which is presented mostly show-don't-tell -- which is why a book with almost no visual description is remembered by many readers as the most visual thing I've ever written. HoZ is pure Madison Avenue and was designed to be just that with mallice aforethought. It was the first of the novels in this Universe and it had to SELL the idea of that universe. Any novel which kicks off another venture of Sime~Gen into the commercial marketplace (which market has changed drastically in the last 20 years but still requires a broad reach and a massive sell) will have to have that same Madison Avenue basis to it. So kick this around awhile -- but be sure if you post to this subject you use the topic mask WORK: -- we have this List set so that some of our Listmembers get ONLY the Work topic, and others open and read only items with the WORK topic mask. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:10:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: EB Subject: Re: B5 Vs.Voyager Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:11 PM 9/18/97 -0500, Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > >The second Voyager of this season -- where B'ellana is having a really >really bad day -- seems to me to be Intimate Adventure to perfection. Anything like "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari," the second episode of season five, B5? >But it contrasts with B5's "victory is better than peace" theme too, and >connects with Sime~Gen's themes. I'm interested in this statement: "victory is better than peace." Considering that war has certainly been a huge unifying thread throughout most of the B5 arc -- the Earth-Minbari war, the war with the Shadows, the civil war with Earth currently taking place -- I would venture to say that victory can be seen as the *road* to peace. But I can't offhand recall seeing anything in the show to suggest that peace is not the ultimate objective, on the part of nearly everyone (save the Shadows, and, well, we know what happened to *them...*). >Janeway says to 7of9 - > >"Acts of unexpected Compassion are common among our group. That's one of >the ways we define our group." > >Contrast this with the Sheridan quote featured in the Sept/Oct. column -- >Sept is posted by now, and Oct coming up in two weeks with the second half >of that column. Where is the column you mention? On a web site? I would like to have a look at it; I'm not sure which Sheridan quote you're referring to. Wait -- I see a url in your sig. Will check it out. :) >Now, true, VOYAGER is a ghastly mess - dreadfully uneven, trapped inside >that horrid tv format of the "anthology show" which makes the fiction seem >meaningless, etc etc -- but these two shows do, I think define each of the >series they belong to. Comparing B5 and Voyager -- well, I can honestly say I don't see much basis for comparison. Ghastly mess indeed. Voyager is an old-fashioned idea whose time is long past; the "anthology" approach is unsatisfactory now, in a time when arcs and long-term storylines hold wide appeal. Combine that with lackluster writing, for the most part, and you've got a show that, for all its possible good intentions, can't help but miss the mark when compared to an achievement such as Babylon 5. Anthology vs. arc. Many writers' ideas vs. one man's long-term vision. Run away from your problems or solve them in a few days, vs. deal with them right in your own front yard. On Voyager, and Trek shows in general, it does seem that problems don't linger, for the most part. (Aside from obvious issues like the recurring Borg threat, and the Cardassian/Bajoran/Founder arc on DS9, which worked so well for so long.) Characters go through tremendous life-altering trauma... and *don't change.* By next week they are back to their normal selves. There are countless frustrating examples of this phenomenon on ST. On B5, changes last. Choices have repercussions, some of which you don't see for literally years. Characters can't physically run from problems. And things aren't fixed in 42 minutes. In fact, many problems haven't been fixed in 42 *hours* of episodes. Londo's slow, heartbreaking metamorphosis from lighthearted swaggerer to Faust. Garibaldi's troubled life, cresting now in the collapse of everything he has once trusted and known to be true -- especially about himself. B5 has its share of problems; it's by no means a perfect show. Some actors are better than others -- way better. Some B-story lines are better than others. But the vision of B5 is something spectacular. Voyager is, for all the effects and good actors, at its heart a rehash of formulaic material. Babylon 5 broke new ground, and continues to do so. B5 breaks the rules. B5 makes its own rules. >I'm too involved in this poor tooth of mine to really get all this >synthesized, but I feel there's a lot of stuff to be thought on these >subjects and I'll get around to it. > >Meanwhile, I just reread my May '97 column on the signature traits of the >Master of anything. I think there are some important points there to >contrast/compare Janeway and Sheridan in terms of Mastery. I would be fascinated to see a comparison of Sheridan and Janeway. Certainly their command styles are vastly different. I won't take up too much space with rambling here, except to say there is one difference between the two commanders which springs immediately to mind. That difference is character evolution. Janeway was tough, intelligent, seasoned, gifted, from the very beginning. She has been through a lot since then, but many of those traits remain, much as they were from the start. I don't mean to unneccessarily undermine her. She's grown... but not in truly substantial ways. Sheridan, on the other hand, has grown in such tremendous and life-altering ways (sometimes literally) that he bears almost no resemblance to the man who, upon arriving on the station, was blown away by the real-water showers and fresh oranges. Sheridan started out a boy scout. Through pain and experience, he has grown into a true leader. A visionary in some respects, but not a mystic. A clever, occasionally devious, always redoubtable man. I would find it interesting to contrast the Voyager characters with their B5 counterparts, when possible. One character Voyager does *much* better is the Doctor. Don't get me wrong, I like Stephen Franklin just fine. But the Doctor is simply better. Sometimes hilarious, sometimes tragic, always fascinating -- he is more "human" than Franklin somehow has ever come across. Even, unfortunately, in the midst of his walkabout. Chakotay vs. Ivanova? (Well, until fifth season, at least.) What about Tuvok vs. Garibaldi? (Once again, pre-character arc changes.) Kes vs. Lyta? Or Talia? But there is no one to compare on Voyager with Londo, or G'Kar. Neelix? Pshaw. And what of Delenn? She's magnificent -- and I can think of no character on Voyager who compares. How about comparing Q and Morden? Now *that* would be interesting... For those who favor Voyager, I don't mean any of this to be incendiary. I simply see Voyager and B5 as "old style" and "new style." Babylon 5 is the Ars Nova of science fiction television. That doesn't mean that Star Trek, in all its various incarnations, didn't achieve a tremendous amount. What it does mean is that change is inevitable, and Babylon 5 is an avatar of that change. Exciting, provocative, and eminently watchable. Em ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: addressing children I don't know whether calling a boy child "son" is a Southern thing -- in fiction and on TV I've come across men of every ethnic/geographic background addressing a boy or younger man, whether related or not, as "Son," apparently to establish the speaker's seniority and therefore wisdom. But from childhood I remember a "Carolina thing" that seems very amusing now. Both my grandmother and my step-grandmother were from North Carolina. Both addressed their oldest sons as "Junior" rather than by name and their daughters (each had only one) as "Sister" instead of by name. I keep wondering what they would call their daughters if they had more than one. I have heard that in past centuries, with high infant mortality, people didn't always name newborns right away. The baby was just "Baby" for a while. In the pre-Unity S-G world, did newly changed-over Simes (in-Territory) and young Gens (out-T) who had passed the "dangerous" age get new names, like at Confirmation? I remember from FIRST CHANNEL that children of Simes who became Gen had their names changed for the negative purpose of emphasizing that they were dead to their family of origin. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:20:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Naming children Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Margaret writes, >I have heard that in past centuries, with high infant mortality, people >didn't always name newborns right away. The baby was just "Baby" for a >while. In the pre-Unity S-G world, did newly changed-over Simes >(in-Territory) and young Gens (out-T) who had passed the "dangerous" age get >new names, like at Confirmation? I remember from FIRST CHANNEL that children >of Simes who became Gen had their names changed for the negative purpose of >emphasizing that they were dead to their family of origin. > In the hotel where we stayed at the foot of Mt. Olympus in Greece, our landlady was babysitting her grandson, who appeared to be about 18 months old. When we asked his name, she replied, "He doesn't have one. He hasn't been baptized yet." Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:15:08 -0700 Reply-To: Anpwhotep Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anpwhotep Subject: Re: B5Vs.Voyager Comments: To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:11:17 -0500, Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > >Listfolk: > >Rushing off to another dentist appoint, I wanted to leave you with the >following thought -- > >This may turn up in one of my columns because it's about INTIMATE ADVENTURE. > > >The second Voyager of this season -- where B'ellana is having a really >really bad day -- seems to me to be Intimate Adventure to perfection. > >But it contrasts with B5's "victory is better than peace" theme too, and >connects with Sime~Gen's themes. Hmmmm...I must ask....where do you get this idea from? The B5 I've followed for 5 seasons has, if anything, had a theme of 'Without strength, there is no peace. Only victimhood.' If you must try to put it into a single statement, I think this is closer to a 'theme' for B5. However, it's entirely too complex and involved (much like real life) to be boiled down into one simplistic statement. People grow, people learn, people change. People behave like real people, warts and all. They still have poor people, they still have criminals, they still have corrupt government officials, they even managed to lose a whole level of the station due to bureaucratic bungling. How many shows pay that much attention to realism? Star Trek (of any variety) is pleasant, it's fun, but at the core, it's basically escapist. I watch it when I want to see a program that focusses on characters who are merely shadowpuppets for the purpose of the story. Well, as long as the story isn't too controversial, that is. Anpwhotep - -- Anpwhotep, Hm Ntrw, Wab Anpw anubis@xxxxxx.com Hail to you, you having come as Khepri, even Khepri who is creator of the gods. You rise and shine on the back of your mother, having appeared in glory as the King of the gods. Your mother Nut shall use her arms on your behalf in making greeting. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: cp850 Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQEVAwUBNCGn3NDXhzqsqjxxAQHa4ggAs/OvuVv9DA533erhbpL60BuleFy96lxf 3eMUcDfjIEwjO81g9ex3SZZ0LBqgjzbKYo9gXuO8df6eDOArVV2Om4HOZ5/LJBQ9 zhs6lGOdPtvdty4PQnw3VxvjrIPzraBXy7PEZmpSgCyvZAYbPvXVESsOUGTgA7Bb 5OGqEAfu/bZUbavKbM0FGoF5GI5XWKhXysgmqlFfzUc4pkTMLZZDSKUTqoUSdKmE 5vO2nbdcgrZvqgjMjBpj8wyQBPalakQU5eWmtekwJoFbk+HypvT80+mxpJgrAvsE +7HeUMVtwYJfOOlpQpfBJVMr5VUEHw6xJMAXhVVhVZbLUBIwHYPnSw== =nqaa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:32:59 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: "Intimate Adventure" In-Reply-To: <199709181710.NAA29627@xxxxxx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Danger: snarky comment ahead. Read at one's own risk. "Intimate Adventure": now how is this different from good old "soap opera?" HMGS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 06:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: "Intimate Adventure" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:32 AM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Danger: snarky comment ahead. Read at one's own risk. > >"Intimate Adventure": now how is this different from good old "soap >opera?" People do not tell utterly ridiculous lies and then not get caught for months or years. Revenge is rarely the motive of major characters. In intimate adventure, after two people get together, they do not have to be over fifty years old in order for their relationship to be allowed to last. The whole community does not spend all its coffee breaks and lunch hours discussing one another's love lives or childraising problems. In IA, when two main characters need to have a confrontation, they do not first spend a week finding excuses not to or missing connections. The vamp who goes through husbands like Kleenex, a sine qua non in soap opera, is usually missing from IA. When people die in IA, they stay dead. Etc. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: "Intimate Adventure" More intelligence behind the plotting, etc.? 9T ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:08:13 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Tenen Subject: TECH: HTML publishing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacqueline, My heartfelt sympathies on your software upgrade problems. For what it's worth, I've never found most of the "auto-publishing" features of either Netscape or Front Page to be helpful. The only really useful one -- and it's very useful to me -- requires that I set up a directory structure on my hard drive that exactly mimics the directory structure I've set up on my server. (Whenever possible, I keep each page or set of related pages in their own directory.) Then, when I set up links in my new web page, instead of typing in the full link name, I hit the "browse" button, find the appropriate page or target I'm linking to, and allow the software to enter what used to be called a "relative pathname" to my link -- i.e., one that doesn't specify anything except where that link is *in relation to the page I'm working on*. (I'm using Navigator Gold.) That way, the link works both on your home computer, and on the server, without having to mess with the HTML directly. And yes, an HTML file is essentially a text file, and can be edited as such. The best way to fix broken links that I know of, actually, is to go into the thing using WordPad, search for the link, and fix it directly. I can't tell you how many times I've had to do this (before discovering the process above), when I wound up accidentally putting links in my HTML to files on my home computer, only to have them not work at all (of course) when my page is uploaded. And as for added code (like the webring code), when it comes from an outside source, it may contain tags that your particular web page software doesn't recognize (i.e., it was composed by hand, or using different software). The only way to get it to work properly then is to add the HTML code by hand, using a text editor. For the FTP part of the process, I use a wonderful little freeware program called WS_FTP, available at http://www.ipswitch.com . It has a split window, showing the directory you're in on your home computer on the left, and (once you've configured it to dial in to your server) the home directory on your server on your right. Dial in to your server using the dial-up networking facility of Windows95, make sure you're in the right directories in both cases, highlight the files you want to upload on the left, click the right-arrow, and voila! Your file is uploaded, exactly as you named it; you can see the process instantly, and then click back to your browser (which of course you already have running) to load your new page(s) and check the links one last time. If you've made a mistake, by this method it's easy to fix it, even if you have to go back to WordPad to re-edit your HTML file again; just change the text and save the file on your home computer, and re-upload with the FTP program, then check once again with your browser. What I like about all this is it gives me simple, manual control of the most easily messed up parts of this process, while still allowing me to use fairly powerful tools (like Netscape Gold or Microsoft Front Page) to compose and lay out a nice-looking page. Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Tenen Subject: TECH: MS Word 8 got Gatesed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ...And what do I mean by that subject line? Many of you use Microsoft products, right? If not Word, then at least Windows. These products always break, right? Windows always freezes just when you have twelve docs open and four are unsaved, no? Or sometimes just when you look at it sideways... And do you always lose functionality on new releases? (Ref. Jacqueline's problem with the HTML Webring code and Word 8, or my own problems when I discovered that Word 7, UNLIKE its predecessor Word 2.0, does NOT allow frames within tables -- and I had already set up ALL my videotape insert sleeves to use this very reasonable feature! I suddenly knew what my Macintosh friends using Word had been complaining about.) I propose a new verb: to Gates. "Oh, S---, I had five documents open and my machine just Gatesed! I couldn't even reboot.." "Bummer! They Gatesed MacWord 6; now I can't use my Mac-specific graphic features anymore!" ...Supply your own phrases. I just seeded this word in the Netherlands, with a systems analyst friend who cracked up when I suggested it. It's also been seeded in the Northeast by another Sys. analyst friend. Spread the word: to Gates -- to lose functionality in a computer-specific environment. May apply intransitively, as in, "my computer Gatesed," or transitively, as in "they Gatesed this new release!" Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:47:44 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Voyager -- change I can't deny that in the original ST, events that should have been life-changing failed to "take." (But characters weren't entirely static -- the Spock-Kirk-McCoy relationship does grow.) That is probably why I don't admire "The City at the Edge of Forever" as much as most other fans seem to. Kirk's "one great love of the week" got to be so irritatingly frequent that the motif, for me, "backwashed" onto my impression of "City," so that I simply can't take Edith Keeler seriously as Kirk's One Great Love. OTOH, I don't think the ST spin-off series are like this. Characters do grow and change, and events from previous eps continue to affect them. Last night, Tom and B. finally declare their love after a long wait. Worf and Dax are going to get married this season. And apparently Odo and Kira will finally get together, too. Plus Worf's son is going to rejoin him. Somehow I never got around to becoming a watcher of B5 -- guess I've missed a lot! LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: WORK: "Selling" background Again Jacqueline has brought up some points that cast an entirely fresh light on fiction for me! Often the early books in a series are most interesting to me because they're exploring the background in such fascinating detail. But not always the *first* book of a series -- sometimes the first book is taken up too much with establishing the characters, laying the groundwork, and engaging in a lot of distracting "action" to allow a thorough exploration of the background, so the leisurely world-building occurs in the second book. Maybe this "selling the background" concept sheds light on a problem I sometimes encounter when I ask people to critique my vampire fiction. My vampires aren't traditional undead; they're a natural species, so of course they lack some of the best-known vulnerabilities and powers. Occasionally a reader will ask things like, "Why does the vampire walk in sunlight? Why does he show up in the mirror?" etc. -- I'm trying to establish that this is a DIFFERENT kind of vampire, and they see the differences as "mistakes." LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: NEWS:Zhag&Tonyo -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: I think I've finally got that blasted file up there. I can't get the LINK to respond though I did manage it once. So if you can't get to Zhag And Tonyo via the link on the index, try putting into your browser the URL http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/Zhagtony.html Note the cap Z - rest small format on this one. You're gonna love this stuff -- Jean keeps leaking me more details. Yum. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: S~G Order Form -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Some of you in Australia wanted to order S~G -- Kerry Lindemann-Schaefer was just here and dug in and packed the table stock for me to take to Darkover (WE NEED T-SHIRTS FOR THE TABLE!) While she was doing that, I made the ORDER FORM for posting at last. It's crude and needs work but the basics are there. Email comments and suggestions to me offlist. Australians, go ahead and pick what you want and email me for price on the shipping. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:46:13 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: URL for Zhag and Tonyo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacqueline left out part of the URL to go directly to the new (and final) version of the notes for eventual stories about Zhag and Tonyo. It's http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5683/Zhagtony.html The link from the Rimon Farris Library still isn't working. Zhag and Tonyo are still telling me things--and Zhag is getting more talkative. I guess he's already told me the worst. But I'm not going to keep adding to the notes on the website. There's enough there to show you how a legend grows. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:08:11 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: TECH: HTML publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Tenen wrote: > > Jacqueline, > > My heartfelt sympathies on your software upgrade problems. For what it's > worth, I've never found most of the "auto-publishing" features of either > Netscape or Front Page to be helpful. > What I like about all this is it gives me simple, manual control of the > most easily messed up parts of this process, while still allowing me to use > fairly powerful tools (like Netscape Gold or Microsoft Front Page) to > compose and lay out a nice-looking page. Admittedly I trained as a computer programmer, but HTML is really very easy to learn - at least the basic elements. It's a typesetting language, and any writer who is used to putting specific around words or phrases intended to be italic, or underlined, or suchlike, can learn the basics of HTML easily - since it's *exactly that*. Yes, it gets more complex when you're trying to do fancier things, but I -did- qualify my comment with 'at least the basics'. :) Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: DO NOT BE AFRAID to go in to a web page and try to fix it yourself. If a link is wrong, look for the place where there's a link marker - it looks like this: This is a link Where the and the mean 'this is a link'. The part includes the address the link points to. I'm not sure why it needs the 'href=', I suspect that there are other things that can be included in an . The bit in the quotes is the address, just the same as you'd write it in your web browser. And between the and the is the text you want to have people click on. And this is the most complicated HTML ever -needs- to get. Oh, if you want to do fancy things it can get hard, but for a simple page, it's just like this. So go ahead and try..
Jenn V.
========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:30:13 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCC53A.D50CEB60" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC53A.D50CEB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My second reply for phone solicitors is: "I can't buy anything right now. My cousin had a hip replacement." The above is perfectly true: never mind that she had her hip replaced years ago and is perfectly fine now. Another idea that I have never tried but might work or at least make them think is: Telling them, "I don't buy anything that hasn't been approved by the Sectuib in Zeor. Does your product have such an approval?" P.S. My favorite book in the Sime Gen novels was First Channel: that was the book that got me into reading the rest of them. ---------- > From: Jean Lorrah > To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU > Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 10:44 PM > > At 05:12 PM 9/16/97 -0400, Lioness wrote: > >I use the "Mrs" and "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who often > >call. > >I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely a Ms and always have > >been, so when the solicitors call and say, "Could I speak to Mr. or Mrs. > >Pollack?" I reply, "There is no Mr. or Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's the > >absolute truth. > > I do the same thing. Mr. and Mrs. Lorrah are my parents. Mr. Lorrah died > in 1992 and Mrs. Lorrah lives in Florida. Neither is available at my > telephone number in Kentucky, so I also am telling the absolute truth when I > tell the solicitors that there are no such people here. Jean > > Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ > **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ------=_NextPart_000_01BCC53A.D50CEB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My second reply for phone solicitors = is:

"I can't buy anything right now. My cousin had a hip = replacement."

The above is perfectly true: never mind that = she had her hip replaced years ago and is perfectly fine now. =

Another idea that I have never tried but might work or at least = make them think is:
Telling them, "I don't buy anything that = hasn't been approved by the Sectuib in Zeor.
Does your product have = such an approval?"

P.S. My favorite book in the Sime Gen = novels was First Channel: that was the book that got me into reading the = rest of them.

----------
> From: Jean Lorrah <a21711f@xxxxxx.>
> To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.
> Subject: Re: Mrs,Ms,Miss
> Date: = Tuesday, September 16, 1997 10:44 PM
>
> At 05:12 PM = 9/16/97 -0400, Lioness wrote:
> >I use the "Mrs" and = "Miss" thing against telephone solicitors, who often
> = >call.
> >I live with my partner, Mary, and I am definitely = a Ms and always have
> >been, so when the solicitors call and = say, "Could I speak to Mr. or Mrs.
> >Pollack?" I = reply, "There is no Mr. or Mrs. Pollack" here. And it's = the
> >absolute truth.
>
> I do the same thing. =  Mr. and Mrs. Lorrah are my parents.  Mr. Lorrah died
> = in 1992 and Mrs. Lorrah lives in Florida.  Neither is available at = my
> telephone number in Kentucky, so I also am telling the = absolute truth when I
> tell the solicitors that there are no such = people here.  Jean
>
> Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx. (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.
> = http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/
> **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. = 10-12, 1997**

------=_NextPart_000_01BCC53A.D50CEB60-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:37:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Hi All Colleen B. writes: << Also - anyone in this group watch The Sentinel? It might be interesting to Sime~Gen fans, since it's centered on the senses. And when it's done right (as in the 3rd season premiere - and in fanfic - some of us have been wondering if a fanfic writer wrote the 3rd season premiere ), I think it qualifies as Intimate Adventure. >> I've seen it a couple of times. I'll admit: the reason I watch is because I like the Sentinal's sidekick. . . Blair? Also, I like to watch the way they interact, and how Blair helps the Sentinal cope with his amazing abilities. The one episode I've seen all the way through was the one with the "Gold Dust" -- the stuff that sent people into a psychotropic haze where everything they saw was surrounded by a golden light. I loved the end of that episode, where the Sentinal (shucks, can't remember *his* name, either!) -- recovering from the side effects of having been infected with the drug, which temporarily blinds him -- opens the door to find this beautiful woman (whom he'd been speaking to and met but never *seen*, because of the drug) standing there in a cloud of golden light. Guess that clinches it: I'm an Intimate Adventure fan to the core! Suzanne P.S. Great name! :-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:38:42 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: S~G kid songs (was: Men vs. Women on music) John Cowan spoofs: << Some more: My Donor lies over the ocean, My Donor lies over the sea, My Donor lies over the ocean, Oh send back my Donor to me! Etc. Jak and Jil went up the hill To have themselves a transfer, But Jak fell down and broke his crown And Jil augmented after! (Distect nursery rhyme) >> LOL! grin-grin-grin :-) These are grand, just grand -- even the grim one (which I didn't copy). Hey, even the grim one is very much in keeping with the Nursery Rhyme tradition which, you'll recall, often had "grim" themes! Yep, I can see it now, at the next Convention: the Sime-Gen Sing-A-Long! ;-D Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:40:02 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Suzanne George Subject: Re: Clearing IE's cache Mary Arens writes: << >From PC World Sept 97 issue: Open Internet Explorer, choose View Options, click Advanced, click View Files, click Las Accessed column header to sort the cache contents in ascending date order, then select and delete files you don't anticipate viewing again. >> Thanks, Mary! This is useful information. Heh -- maybe I should start reading some of these computer magazines . . . Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:22:41 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: TECH: HTML publishing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:08 AM 9/20/97 +1000, Jenn wrote: > >Admittedly I trained as a computer programmer, but HTML is really very easy to >learn - at least the basic elements. > >It's a typesetting language, and any writer who is used to putting specific >around words or phrases intended to be italic, or underlined, or suchlike, can >learn the basics of HTML easily - since it's *exactly that*. I absolutely agree. If you view the source code, you will see the mess Word8 has made of the Rimon Farris Library. It arbitraily changed the external links to internal links by adding unwanted #'s--that's why they no longer work. It also does something weird with link names; instead of the standard http://www.yourdomain/yourpage.html (or just yourpage.html if you have everything in the same cache), it converts them to whatever name you use as the link marker. As I have no way of experimenting with Jacqueline's page, I do not know whether there is some new version of HTML that somehow-or-other recognizes (how?!) the URL the link is to from what you have called it (maybe the program has embedded some other code identifying the links somewhere?), but I would not _expect_ what I see there in the source code to work, even after the # is taken out. What I see in these programs is a deliberate attempt to keep the user dependent on them by making HTML appear to be so complex that no one could possibly understand it. And they do it increasingly by hiding the real, comprehensible code under their own arbitrary code. At the same time, they expand the bandwidth ridiculously, so you can get only a third as much content on your website. Fortunately, good old basic HTML still works, and I will continue to build my sites with it. I use HotDog, which does old-fashioned HTML, but is very handy for doing tedious stuff like tables automatically. The important thing is that it _doesn't_ arbitrarily change my commands and require reduplication of graphics, etc. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Hannah M.G. Shapero" Subject: Re: URL for Zhag and Tonyo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919214613.006a866c@xxxxxx.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Zhag and Tonyo are still telling me things--and Zhag is getting more > talkative. I guess he's already told me the worst. But I'm not going to > keep adding to the notes on the website. There's enough there to show you > how a legend grows. Jean Dear Jean, and others: I am out of it. Who are "Zhag and Tonyo" and why are they telling you things? Are these characters who you will eventually write about? Are they in any of the books or fan fiction? HMGS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:10 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret Carter wrote: > OTOH, I don't think the ST spin-off series are like this. Characters do grow > and change, and events from previous eps continue to affect them. Last > night, Tom and B. finally declare their love after a long wait. Worf and Dax > are going to get married this season. And apparently Odo and Kira will > finally get together, too. Plus Worf's son is going to rejoin him. Tom and B.? Worf and Dax!?! Dax has that older sentient 'worm' within her...? Odo and Kira!? Odo's not a shapeshifter anymore, right? Are these couples genetically compatible? I _have_ missed alot... > > Somehow I never got around to becoming a watcher of B5 -- guess I've missed a > lot! When the first B5 movie was showing on TV, I meant to watch it, but it made such an impression on me that not only did I not finish watching it, but I refused to even attempt to watch B5 until quite recently. The dialogue seems to me to be very, very bad (along with the acting) at times. But once I gave the show a chance (watched more than a few of them) the storyline grew on me, and I could (mostly) ignore the bad dialogue/acting... > > LL&P, > Margaret JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: Re: Forms of address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [my few cents] In U of Akron, I only heard the professors addressed as Dr. with their surname... I had one professor who asked us to address him by his first name -- but we were doing research for him, not actually taking a class from him. For myself, I feel extremely uncomfortable calling someone who is older than me (or who I think is older than me!) by their bare first name [exception is if I am on 'equal' terms with them -- as in a class with them. Then, instead of 'extremely uncomfortable,' I merely feel weird about it...]. Seems to be a respect issue, for me. I never got into the habit of using sir or ma'am... I tend to leave off using names/titles altogether. For reference: I grew up in Illinois, but have spent about half my life in central to NE ohio. JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:16:01 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: JoAnn Lee Subject: aside: Katharine Kerr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A curiosity question: I do not have a deep grasp of karmic principles (beyond the basic of past lives affecting the present one) but I was wondering, for the people who do, and enjoy Sime/Gen with it as an added demension, if you read Katharine Kerr's Deverry series? If you do, do you enjoy them? JoAnn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:28:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: URL for Zhag and Tonyo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:18 AM 9/20/97 -0400, Hannah wrote: > > I am out of it. Who are "Zhag and Tonyo" and why are they telling >you things? Are these characters who you will eventually write about? Are >they in any of the books or fan fiction? > Zhag and Tonyo are characters in my short story, "Reflection of a Dream," which is currently making the rounds of sf magazines in search of a publisher. I read the story at the S~G party at WorldCon. The characters, though, have integrated themselves into the S~G universe (they live in the Zelerod's Doom period, but their story begins immediately _after_ Unity and takes off from there), and are in the process of telling me their life stories. The file at this URL, http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/5683/Zhagtony.html is a plain text file, no graphics. Even if your browser is slow, if you go directly to it rather than trying to link from other pages, it will load quickly because there is nothing to delay it. You can of course save it as a text file, and read it in Notepad at your leisure. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:02:28 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: TECH: MS Word 8 got Gatesed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I just seeded this word in the Netherlands, with a systems analyst friend > who cracked up when I suggested it. > > It's also been seeded in the Northeast by another Sys. analyst friend. > > Spread the word: > to Gates -- to lose functionality in a computer-specific environment. May > apply intransitively, as in, "my computer Gatesed," or transitively, as in > "they Gatesed this new release!" > > Cynthia Seeded in Brisbane, Australia. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:21:37 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: TECH: HTML publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > I do not know whether there is some new version of HTML that > somehow-or-other recognizes (how?!) the URL the link is to from what you > have called it (maybe the program has embedded some other code identifying > the links somewhere?), but I would not _expect_ what I see there in the > source code to work, even after the # is taken out. The only one I know of is that IF you put your base URL in the header section, you can use relative addressing. (IE: leave out the domain and the directory, and just use.. say ... . I don't use relative addressing anymore - some browsers are gatesed and don't understand it. > What I see in these programs is a deliberate attempt to keep the user > dependent on them by making HTML appear to be so complex that no one could > possibly understand it. And they do it increasingly by hiding the real, > comprehensible code under their own arbitrary code. At the same time, they > expand the bandwidth ridiculously, so you can get only a third as much > content on your website. UNDOUBTEDLY. Myself, I use the HTML Writer's Guild, and the W3 consortium guidelines, and keep myself up to date with which tags and styles are *official* HTML - currently, HTML 2.0 and HTML 3.2 (proposed). (Web page for the writer's guild: http://www.hwg.org/) > Fortunately, good old basic HTML still works, and I will continue to build > my sites with it. I use HotDog, which does old-fashioned HTML, but is very > handy for doing tedious stuff like tables automatically. The important > thing is that it _doesn't_ arbitrarily change my commands and require > reduplication of graphics, etc. Jean Worth looking into. I don't trust -any- editor/composer, and thus know more about the oddities of browsers than I want to. :) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:28:34 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: lynda m tatad Subject: Re: Voyager -- change On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:10 -0700 JoAnn Lee writes: >Margaret Carter wrote: > >Tom and B.? Worf and Dax!?! Dax has that older sentient 'worm' >within >her...? Odo and Kira!? Odo's not a shapeshifter anymore, right? Are >these couples genetically compatible? I _have_ missed alot... > >> LL&P, >> Margaret It's been done before. Alexander's Mother (Worf's son) was half Klingon and half human, as is B'elana. So B'elana and Tom should have no problems physicaly (only Klingons are a little rougher during love making). I like the idea of Worf and Dax together, they've been working on that story for a while... and the 'symbiant' (sp?) in her has had experience with Klingons in the past to understand the culture, but her host body (Judzia sp?) is still that of a young woman with her own emotions and thoughts combined with Dax. Oda was able to become a shapeshifter after a dying infant shapeshifter melded with him. Star Trek is trying to show in it's own way that people of different races/species can love each other. It's just their way of commenting on inter-racial relations of our time. Lynda :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here is a copy of a letter Spider Robinson, a MUCH bigger name than either Jacqueline or I ever had hopes of being, has just sent out to the (count 'em) 60,000 of his fans whose e-mail addresses he apparently has. Read it and weep. Jean ------Begin Forwarded Message------- Subject: Open letter from Spider Robinson From: ted@xxxxxx.com (Ted Powell) Date: 1997/09/17 Message-Id: <5vo7f9$37s@xxxxxx.com> Newsgroups: alt.callahans,van.general [More Headers] I just received the message below from Spider. Although I'm in the middle of setting up some computers here, I figured this was important enough that once I get this posting done I'm going to HTML-ize the letter to put on the web site (http://psg.com/~ted/spider/). I hope you'll consider it important too. [--Spider's text begins--] I'd appreciate it a great deal if you would post, forward, link, and/or otherwise disseminate the following screed to all those at alt.callahans, #callahansIRC, the Compuserve SFLIT Forum, AOL's Callahan's Forum, and/or any related sites you can dig up or swing up out de jungle: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Squeegee That Monitor For You, Sir?" AN OPEN LETTER TO ALT.CALLAHANS AND RELATED SITES FROM SPIDER ROBINSON My toast tonight is, "To writers--may the saints add preservatives to = them. And FAST!" !!!SMASH!!! This is something I swore I would never do. But I'm too worried not to. The horse I ride on--the publishing = industry, never exactly a thoroughbred--has just begun to stumble and cough up = blood. Suddenly I need your help too badly NOT to pull on your coat-tail. You alt.callahans folk and related accomplices owe me nothing. You have made YOUR Callahan's Place all by yourselves, with no help from me, and = I think it is in many ways a better, finer creation than my own--one in = its way more wonderful than I COULD HAVE imagined. I'm not trying to call = in some nonexistent marker--just asking for a minute of your time. I = promise I'll play you out with a song when I'm done, at least, like the last = time we spoke. Okay? Let me try and give you an idea of HOW worried I am: I have recently given serious thought to what else I might do for a = living, besides write books. No, really. I have even...God, this is hard...I have even contemplated honest work. Of some kind. There must be some trade you can pick up at age forty-eight...right? As concise a statement of the problem as I can provide: The publishing business has, in slow stages over the twenty-five years = I've been writing, essentially been captured by the same kind of vampires = that ruined Hollywood. Freebooters, parasites, looters...oh, come out and = say it: SHAREHOLDERS, and their chieftains and goons...who want only to milk the industry--ANY industry--for the maximum possible short-term return, = and don't mind at ALL if they bleed it dead in the process, so long as they personally get sufficient advance warning of the crunch. People = who--for reasons I will NEVER comprehend--actually WANT to be Very Rich. = (People, in other words, who either don't know or don't care whether they = themselves are happy or not...as long as they have all the marbles.) They have the same swing-for-the-fences mentality that is screwing up cinema. All we want here are zillion-dollar superstar = blockbusters...and a few "little" pictures in which to groom the superstars of tomorrow. Nothing in between; no second features. In like manner, many of the = people making decisions in publishing today would like to have a list = consisting of nothing but Clancys and Parkers...and a handful of talented newcomers who might be the NEXT Clancy or Parker, but meanwhile are willing to = work for first-novel prices. (I hasten to add that I mean no slightest disrespect to either Tom Clancy or Robert Parker; I picked them because = I respect them both highly, and buy their new books on sight.) This isn't the editors and publishers themselves I'm talking about, = either. Many if not most of them love good books, even now. But their policies are being made for them by the conglomerates that swallowed them up in = the last decade or so. Men and women who got into the business for the fundamental purpose of publishing (at least some) books they were proud = of, are now working for people whose ONLY guiding principle is the mantra, "Place yourself between the talent and the money." The ultimate, industry-shaping decisions are being made, as in Hollywood, by people = who don't give a toasted DAMN about the PRODUCT, much less the = producer-slaves. What they want is simple: HUGE profits, NOW. Blockbusters...and good = first novels, or hacks who are willing to work REAL cheap. What they DON'T much want anymore are MID-LIST writers. Quirky = scribblers. Ones with faithful but not mammoth audiences. Ones difficult to sum up = to a salesman in Paducah with a one-sentence soundbite. Ones PEOPLE = magazine isn't talking about. Ones whose books haven't been a sma-shit (no, = that's not misspelled) movie yet. Ones whose works not only reward, but = REQUIRE a high-school education and some imagination. Ones who sell well...but = not VERY well--or not all in one big lump, but over time. They'll keep a few around, for show...but only if they're willing to = accept a little serious downsizing. I'm not the only one squawking. At least one colleague recently = circulated an urgent open letter similar to this one, triggered when he learned = that after over 25 years of award-winning publishing, he can literally no = longer sell a book in New York--even to editors who like his work. The sales figures for his last book (and ONLY his last book) just weren't good enough... Upon reading this, I suddenly became very interested in things I'd never paid any attention to, like my own sales figures and print runs. I was fairly cheered by what few numbers I could find, lurking under = concealment on assorted "royalty statements"; my printruns were routinely well over 100,000 copies, always sold well enough to call for at least a second printing, always hit the Locus sf Best Seller list. The rent always got paid--often on time. But lately there has been all sorts of Bad News in the publishing biz, talk of "cutbacks," so I resolved to keep a weather = eye out, or peeled, or whatever it is you're supposed to do with a weather eye... Guess what I just found out? Tor, citing "industry retrenchment," only printed up less than ONE QUARTER AS MANY copies as usual of the latest Callahan paperback, CALLAHAN'S LEGACY. That's right, a book which carries in it printed acknowledgment of all 60,000+ of you alt.callahans members out there plus all the related = forums, channels and groups was not printed in sufficient numbers for HALF of = you to buy a copy, should you be so inclined. They will only go back to press if most of those sell out. Those = pitifully few copies, like ALL paperbacks, have a maximum shelf-life of about a month. Tops. In some venues, a week. (If they GET to the shelf at all...) So here at last is what I'm saying: if you were by any chance thinking = of picking up a copy of Spider Robinson's new one -- or the new one by ANY author you care about who isn't already a blockbuster superstar -- for = the love of God, PLEASE DON'T PUT IT OFF! This chance may not come again. = If it's not on the shelf, ORDER it....FAST, before they pulp the returns = and unshipped copies... Times have changed. If you love books, you must now start to change = your thinking, and come to see them as precious, evanescent fireflies, which flicker briefly and then are no more. If you do not stay alert for = them, and grab them on sight, they will probably never be reprinted: the = concept of backlist is on its way to the ash-heap. All of us who put words in a row for your enjoyment are in serious no-shit danger, and we need your = help and support. I know *I* do. How much? Let me give you a clue: I LEARNED the above information about = my most recent print-run while trying to get an explanation for why the proposal I had submitted to Tor for my NEXT book about Jake Stonebender = and his family and friends (working title: CALLAHAN'S KEY) had, after months = of puzzling silence, just brought back an offer of...60 percent of what = they paid me for the last one. (In devalued dollars.) Cousins, I was just barely making it at the OLD rates. Until a month = ago, when a miracle occurred, I was composing my books--all my work--on a computer which I just saw advertised in MacWorld for US$49 plus = shipping. I can't TAKE a 40% pay cut and pay my rent. And at 48, I just haven't = got the stamina to go back on the road as a musician; it's a young man's = game. The ONLY lever I can hope to apply is to show a LARGE sell-through for = that miserable first printing...and the next (dear God let there BE a next)...and the next...and hope that eventually one of those illiterate = but NOT innumerate bean-counters way up on the corporate ladder of unknown strangers who tell the publishers what to do will see numbers he or she likes, and decide that there just might be room for me somewhere on one = of the bottom rungs of the Star section. "Knock that cat a living wage..." rather than "Throw a statue where that cat blew..." as Lord Buckley = might have it. THEN I'll be able to write you all the next Callahan book... (And again, I'm not trying to put a knock on Tor. They've showed strong commitment to the Callahan series; this must be the best they can do for me, the way things are these days.) Christmas will be here all too soon. Why not get your shopping done early...down at the bookstore? They happen to have, or should have, = THREE Spider Robinson paperbacks on the shelves at once, just now--another of those wizardly publisher decisions--containing a total of SIX complete Spider Robinson novels between their six covers. (See my website for details-- http://psg.com/~ted/spider) A Sixpack of Spider (and Jeanne)--for under US$22/CAN$30! And trust me: they won't be there long... (The combined ad and promo for all three volumes, from two different publishers, has been far less than I'm used to seeing for a single novel = in the past. I guess they now want to wait and see how the books sell, = before deciding if it's worth advertising them...see what I mean? Typical Hollywood "thinking.") As Homer and Jethro used to say at the end of every number, "Thanks for your sympathy." I appreciate your listening, and appreciate any help = you may be able to throw my way. So--just like the last time I wrote to all you folks--I'm going to play you out with a song, to thank you for = letting me jingle my cup. I was sitting here in my office one night 'round midnight, last month, pecking away, and Jeanne was two open doors away, invisible to me, lying = on the couch in the livingroom reading a Zen book...and all of a sudden for = no particular reason I looked up and smiled and called out, softly, "I'm = aware of you." And she purred, and stretched on the couch, and called back, "That's a = song title." So when I got dressed again and got back to the computer, I = wrote it, and by the next day I had the tune right. Slow ballad, attempted Ray Charles flavor, key of A. It goes: I'm Aware of You, Jeanne (c) 1997 by Spider Robinson; all rights reserved I'm aware of you When I'm busy at my work and you are humming in the parlor I'm aware of you We don't have to say a word, I never need any reminder I'm aware of you And I care for you I will be there for you ('cause) You're aware of me You give me what I need most times before I know I need it You're aware of me I don't have to slay a dragon just to come to your attention You're aware of me And you care for me You've been there for me And this house is alive when you're home When you're gone, it's a pleasant hotel I don't ask if you're home as I come through the door I can tell I can tell... ('cause) I'm aware of you While my mind is chasing characters across the Galaxy I am aware of you When I'm rapt at my computer playing poker with myself I am aware of you And I care for you I know you know I do... You know I know you do... 'Cause I'm aware of you ------------------------------------------------------------- THANKS FOR LISTENING. PLEASE FORWARD. TELL YOUR FRIENDS. HAUNT YOUR BOOKSTORE REGULARLY, *ESPECIALLY* YOUR INDEPENDENT OR SPECIALTY = BOOKSTORE. ASK THEM TO PHONE YOU WHEN A NEW BOOK BY YOUR FAVORITE AUTHOR COMES OUT; THEY'LL BE *GLAD* TO TAKE A LIST. IF YOU DON'T HAVE SUCH A STORE = NEARBY, GET AMAZON.COM TO AUTOMATICALLY SEND YOU YOUR FAVORITE AUTHORS' NEW = BOOKS ON RELEASE; THEY'RE SET UP TO LET YOU FILE A LIST. "'PEOPLE WHO READ BOOKS'...NEXT ON GERALDO..." IT'S NOT FUCKING FUNNY. Well, okay, it IS...but it's a funny DISASTER, for our whole species. And certainly for --Spider Robinson Vancouver, BC 15 September 1997 | James L. Terman | Science may set limits to know- | | | ledge, but should not set limits | | terman@xxxxxx.net | to imagination. | | http://www.slip.net/~terman | - Bertrand Russell | --------- End forwarded message ---------- Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Organization: Murray State University Subject: Big Brother Surveillance by the FBI Comments: cc: a21711f@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date sent: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:41:18 -0400 From: shabbir@xxxxxx.org (Shabbir J. Safdar) To: vtw-announce@xxxxxx.org Send reply to: vtw-announce@xxxxxx.org ____ _ ____ _ _ Stop the Big Brother | _ \| |/ _` | | _ \| '__/ _ \| __| '_ \ / _ \ '__| Amendment, coming next | |_) | | (_| | | |_) | | | (_) | |_| | | | __/ | week in the House |____/|_|\__, | |____/|_| \___/ \__|_| |_|\___|_| Commerce committee! |___/ Posted September 18, 1997 Please forward where appropriate until September 28, 1997 This alert brought to you by The Voters Telecommunications Watch, The Center for Democracy & Technology, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Wired Magazine, and Americans for Tax Reform _________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents Stop the Government From Building Big Brother Into The Internet What You Can Do -Please contact four leading members of Congress Background About This Alert _________________________________________________________________ STOP THE GOVERNMENT FROM BUILDING BIG BROTHER INTO THE INTERNET In 1948, George Orwell described a future world in which Big Brother peaked over the shoulder of every citizen -- watching every move and listening to every word. Now, in 1997, the FBI is pushing the United States Congress to pass legislation which would make George Orwell's frightening vision a reality. Next week the House Commerce Committee will meet to consider a proposal that would require all Americans to provide the government guaranteed access to their private online communications and business transactions. Taking a page out of Orwell's 1984, the FBI-spawned proposal would require that every part of the Internet -- from the software on your computer to the network provider that carries your messages around the net -- be jury-rigged to divulge your private conversations immediately on request by the FBI (see below). Unfortunately, this is not a work of fiction. The amendment, to be offered by Representatives Mike Oxley (R-OH) and Thomas Manton (D-NY), is a serious threat to your privacy and represents the first and final step in the construction of a National Surveillance Infrastructure. A vote is expected on September 25. The future of privacy and security in the information age is in the hands of the Commerce Committee, and they need to know that folks are watching and care about the outcome. On Monday September 22, please join thousands of Internet users all across the country as we call on Congress to stop big brother. With your help and support, we can ensure that George Orwell's 1984 does not become a reality. All the information you need is attached below. _________________________________________________________________ WHAT YOU CAN DO 1. ON MONDAY SEPTEMBER 22, pick up the phone and call as many of the four leading members of the Commerce committee as you can: Chairman Thomas Bliley (R-VA) (202) 225-2815 Ranking member John Dingell (D-MI) (202) 225-4071 Rep. Tauzin (R-LA) (202) 225-4031 Rep. Markey (D-MA) (202) 225-2836 2. Ask for the staffer that handles the encryption issue. 3. Say that you're calling to urge the Congressman to pass SAFE (HR695) without amendments. Specifically, say that you "OPPOSE THE OXLEY/MANTON BIG BROTHER AMENDMENT. Americans should not be required to give the government keys to the front door of their house, and they shouldn't be required to give the government the keys to unlock their private online communications." Other amendments may be proposed. Please urge the Congressman to pass SAFE "as is" and oppose any amendments. Feel free to use your own words though here are some points you might want to stress: - Oxley/Manton is a dramatic expansion of law enforcement power. It would give law enforcement "immediate" access to private online communications and business transactions without any notice or knowledge to the user. - Oxley/Manton is NOT A BALANCE BETWEEN PRIVACY INTERESTS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT CONCERNS, as some supporters have argued. It gives the FBI broad new power while stripping Americans of their Fourth Amendment right to be secure from unreasonable searches and seizures. - Oxley/Manton would give the Attorney General authority to dictate the design of Internet services and software to suit the needs of law enforcement. - Oxley/Manton would not stop crime. Strong encryption without "immediate access" features is available today at home and abroad. - Oxley/Manton would increase opportunities for cybercrime as criminal hackers attack vulnerabilities in the key recovery access system. 4. Let us know how it went! Go to one of the following web pages, depending on who you called, and tell us about the conversation. Rep. Bliley http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=va07 Rep. Dingell http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=mi16 Rep. Tauzin http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=la03 Rep. Markey http://www.crypto.com/member/meet.cgi?membid=ma07 5. Forward this ALERT to your friends and colleagues. 6. Feel good about yourself! Know that you've stood up for privacy, and contacting Congress is more than most people take the time to do! _________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND The House Commerce Committee is considering a bill known as the "Security and Freedom through Encryption Act" (HR 695, a.k.a. SAFE). SAFE would encourage the widespread availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in order to protect privacy and promote electronic commerce on the Internet. SAFE enjoys broad support from Internet users, civil liberties advocates, and over 250 members of Congress. Last week, the Commerce Committee delayed its vote on the SAFE bill in order to give the Committee more time to study the implications of the Oxley/Manton amendment, which would change SAFE to ban encryption which does not contain features that provide law enforcement with "immediate access" to the plain text of encrypted information, including private communications and business transactions (visit http://www.crypto.com/safe_bill/) The Oxley/Manton amendment would for the first time impose sweeping restrictions on the ability of American citizens to protect their privacy on US soil. Specifically, the amendment would: * PROHIBIT THE DOMESTIC MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS OR SERVICES WHICH DO NOT PROVIDE INSTANT ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT: The proposal would prohibit the manufacture, sale, import, or distribution within the United States of any encryption product unless it allows "immediate access" to the plain text of any user's messages or files without the user's knowledge. * GRANT BROAD NEW AUTHORITY FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO SET TECHNICAL STANDARDS FOR ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS: The proposal allows the Attorney General to set standards for what are and are not acceptable encryption products. The proposal's requirement of immediate access to plain text would seem to seriously limit the options available to encryption manufacturers seeking approval of their products. The amendment does not specify whether the immediate access "features" could be activated (or not) at the option of the purchaser or end user. Nonetheless, requiring that such a capability be installed in all domestic communications networks and encryption products is the equivalent of enabling a national surveillance infrastructure and asserts unprecedented control over the design of Internet software, hardware, and services. The amendment is analogous to the government requiring surveillance cameras in every new house built in the United States, which could be turned on remotely by the police if you were ever suspected of committing a crime. Worse yet, such "key escrow" or "key recovery" technologies pose significant risk to the security of the Internet -- providing new points of vulnerability for hackers, terrorists, and industrial spies to exploit. A recent study by 11 of the worlds leading cryptographers concluded that the large scale deployment of such technologies would be too complex and too insecure to meet the needs of an Information Age society (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study/) Despite widespread opposition from Internet users, civil liberties groups, privacy advocates, and the computer and communications industries, Oxley and Manton plan to push for this FBI spawned amendment at the Commerce Committee vote. If it is adopted, it would represent the first and final step in the development of a national surveillance infrastructure. _________________________________________________________________ ABOUT THIS ALERT This message was brought to you by the Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org), the Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org/), the Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/), Wired Magazine (http://www.wired.com/), and Americans for Tax Reform (http://www.atr.org/) who have joined together on this alert. _________________________________________________________________ end alert 09.18.1997 net ====================================================================== === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:04:29 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Big Brother Surveillance by the FBI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, the effect it would have would be to cut the USA out of the rest of the internet. Oh, we'd *miss* most of you, and we'd miss our friends, but when it came to any commercial endeavours, and anything in which we value our privacy, we'd just help Canada or Mexico (probably Canada, it's a more stable government) to set up sufficient backbone and routing that anything tagged 'secure' would flip through Canada when it needed to pass those longitudes. The USA is beginning to be more trouble than it's worth, commercial-security wise. If your government insists on key escrow, it'll be too unsafe for any non-USA banks to be willing to support commercial enterprises across the net there. My husband is 2IC programmer (in charge of security) for one, and he's just shaking his head sadly and fretting about going into his boss' office and telling him that he's going to have to get the law staff to think up a way around that amendment, if it passes. If they can. Jenn V. Jean Lorrah wrote: > - Oxley/Manton would give the Attorney General authority to dictate > the > design of Internet services and software to suit the needs of law > enforcement. > * PROHIBIT THE DOMESTIC MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF ENCRYPTION PRODUCTS OR > SERVICES WHICH DO NOT PROVIDE INSTANT ACCESS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT: > The proposal would prohibit the manufacture, sale, import, or > distribution within the United States of any encryption product > unless it allows "immediate access" to the plain text of any user's > messages or files without the user's knowledge. > Worse yet, such "key escrow" or "key recovery" technologies pose > significant risk to the security of the Internet -- providing new > points of vulnerability for hackers, terrorists, and industrial spies > to exploit. A recent study by 11 of the worlds leading cryptographers > concluded that the large scale deployment of such technologies would > be too complex and too insecure to meet the needs of an Information > Age society (see http://www.crypto.com/key_study/) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Stupid question time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please? Who and what is the Sentinal and when and where is it on? =20 I vaguely recall something, but until mentioned on the list had never heard= of it. It sounds like it could be interesting. Thanks, Kandy in Nebraska ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:56:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Re: Voyager -- change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It has been very difficult for me to follow DS9, Voyager and B5 with any re= gularity the last couple of years. Voyager has been the only one I can con= sitently view being on a night that has long been set aside in our family t= o watch Trek. Our local carrier moved DS9 and B5 to a Thursday, of all nig= hts, and so it's next to impossible for either my husband or myself to reme= mber it's on. =20 Anyway, Tom and B'Elana might make a very interesting couple. And there's = been 'tension' between Odo and Kira for years. I doubt that I will ever be= comfortable with Worf and Dax, probably mainly because I have written some= fan fic regarding Worf and a fiesty, fiery-haired, petite Human.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cynthia Tenen Subject: It's creeping up on the Big Names: A Question for the Pros Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re Spyder Robinson's letter -- Jean, that's awful! So here's a question for you pros: I belong to the SF Book Club (I have for years and years), and usually, when there's a book coming out that I know they'll carry I wait to buy it from them because, frankly, it saves me money. But do these sales help the author at all, particularly with reference to the problems Spyder wrote about? If SF Book Club sales *don't* count towards an author's popularity and salability according to the CorpPublishers, then I won't buy new releases from the club any more -- I'll buy them from a bookstore. Not that that's a solution to the problem. But I'd like to know anyhow. Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Big Brother Surveillance by the FBI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenn Vesperman wrote: > The USA is beginning to be more trouble than it's worth, > commercial-security > wise. War of 1812, part II? (Note for the Canada-impaired: Contrary to what you learned in school, the U.S. *lost* that war, and Canada won it.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: WORK:Top Fifteen Romance Novel Opening Lines (fwd) -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Workshoppers; Most of you got this on the open List postings, but I know there are a few on the Workshop who only get postings with WORK: in the subject line as above -- so I'm reposting it. Anita -- note how the topic mask is inserted at the beginning of the line and followed by a colon. You can put two topic masks in there one after the other (such as WORK:NEWS:). BTW, Anita or Susan ??? -- welcome to the list and thank you for the post. This message came into my box from ANITA DEY but was signed Susan, and I don't know Susan Who? Doesn't matter. Welcome and thank you. Someday introduce yourself! Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg ================================================================ T H E T O P F I V E L I S T Keep out of reach of children. ================================================================ August 29, 1997 The Top 15 Bad Romance Novel Opening Lines 15> "He snapped my bra like a Concord taking off, and I was unhooked for love." 14> "Yes, she was a woman who had once been a man, but she still knew how to flutter her eyelashes as well as those other hussies." 13> "The heaving waves on the vast, ink-black ocean sent a salty spray over the proud bow of the three-masted ship, leaving beads of water on the exposed alabaster skin above the bodice of the tall, raven-haired woman who stood sobbing on the deck, her salty tears mixing with the storm-tossed sea." 12> "Scarlet's hair was as red as my persistent canker sore." 11> "Nicolette let the silk blouse fall from her shoulders, wrapped her left leg around John and deftly cut some cheese." 10> "Robert was new at this prison thing, and he felt frightened and confused. But the moment he laid eyes on #472825994, he became a prisoner of love." 9> "Sam liked to hump." 8> "Though flanked by two swarthy state troopers, Paula found her gaze drawn to the chubby saxophonist." 7> "It was a dark and horny night." 6> "Gentle cascades of vermilion poured over Daphne's heaving, lily-white bosom. 'Call 911, Scooby,' she breathed." 5> "His flatulence reared up like a proud stallion." 4> "'Miss Savannah, is there room for both of us in that hoop skirt?' Chandler mocked with a slight bow and a sweep of his top hat." 3> "Within minutes of their meeting, Representatives Beth (D-Florida) and Eric (R-Montana) lumbered into the bedroom where soon the unmistakable sounds of wet, naked bodies engaged in a sexual congress were heard." 2> "He smelled of pork. Rotting pork, in fact, and lots of it." and the Number 1 Bad Romance Novel Opening Line... 1> "Omaha Beach, 0800 Hours: reinforcements from 2nd Panzer Korps arrive, their well-muscled young torsos glistening with man-dew." [ This list copyright 1997 by Chris White and Ziff Davis, Inc. ] [ The Top Five List top5@xxxxxx.com http://www.topfive.com ] [ To forward or repost, please include this section. ] ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:40:15 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: WORK:(long) Babylon 5, Victory vs Peace, Holos at 11 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Note: All of the nonquoted material below is of course, IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, EB wrote: > At 01:11 PM 9/18/97 -0500, Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: [ text ejected to prevent Borg contamination ] > >But it contrasts with B5's "victory is better than peace" theme too, and > >connects with Sime~Gen's themes. > > I'm interested in this statement: "victory is better than peace." There has been an ongoing discussion of this on the list. This is JL's summation of a basic philosophical concept she greatly disagrees with and which she feels is a fundamental part of the B5 story. She generally has high praise for almost everything about B5, except this concept, which she finds abhorrent. But she feels this concept is so fundamental that this is analogous to Heinlein's line about liking the Pacific Ocean except for all the water. Note that the phrase "victory is better than peace" is JL's. It does not appear in B5 anywhere that I know of. It seems to be based on the Season 3 opening credits voiceover: Season 3: "Point of No Return" The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed. But, in the Year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope... for victory. The year is 2260. The place: Babylon 5. - Commander Ivanova I have quoted all the opening credits voiceovers from the B5 Lurker's Guide, along with two other relevant items, at the end of this message. > Considering that war has certainly been a huge unifying thread throughout > most of the B5 arc -- the Earth-Minbari war, the war with the Shadows, the > civil war with Earth currently taking place -- I would venture to say that > victory can be seen as the *road* to peace. But I can't offhand recall > seeing anything in the show to suggest that peace is not the ultimate > objective, on the part of nearly everyone (save the Shadows, and, well, we > know what happened to *them...*). This sort of ends - means question is what we are talking about here, I suspect. It isn't clear what the alternative is supposed to be. The opposite principle "peace is better than victory" (I'm not sure if it was ever phrased exactly this way, it may be my coinage) is supposed to be the philosophical basis for Star Trek, that conflicts can be negotiated to a viable settlement. But a number of listmembers have asserted that there isn't *always* a possibility of negotiation, that some opponents _won't_ be reasonable, and won't agree to a settlement, but will in fact use a pretext of such as a cynical tool to advance their agenda. Another issue that has been raised is that if you value peace over all else the logical conclusion of that line of thought is total slavery of those who hold this position to those who do not, since the latter can always get what they want by threatening war. This is admittedly an extreme strawman position, but does reflect one of the difficult issues involved These questions have (IMHO) not been satisfactorily resolved as yet. [ text deleted to comply with Romulan treaty ] > On B5, changes last. Choices have repercussions, some of which you don't > see for literally years. Characters can't physically run from problems. > And things aren't fixed in 42 minutes. In fact, many problems haven't been > fixed in 42 *hours* of episodes. Londo's slow, heartbreaking metamorphosis > from lighthearted swaggerer to Faust. Garibaldi's troubled life, cresting > now in the collapse of everything he has once trusted and known to be true > -- especially about himself. And G'Kar's journey from a bloodthirsty vengeful warmonger to a mystic preaching sacrifice (albeit possibly influenced by Vorlon meddling) For reference, from the The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/ From "The Gathering" B5 Pilot movie: I was there at the dawn of the third age of mankind. It began in the Earth year 2257 with the founding of the last of the Babylon stations, located deep in neutral space. It was a port of call for refugees, smugglers, businessmen, diplomats, and travelers from a hundred worlds. Could be a dangerous place. But we accepted the risk, because Babylon 5 was our last, best hope for peace. Under the leadership of its final commander, Babylon 5 was a dream given form: a dream of a galaxy without war, when species from different worlds could live side by side in mutual respect. A dream that was in danger as never before, by the arrival of one man on a mission of destruction. Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. This is its story. - Londo Mollari Season 1: "Signs and Portents" It was the dawn of the third age of mankind, ten years after the Earth/Minbari war. The Babylon Project was a dream given form. Its goal, to prevent another war by creating a place where humans and aliens could work out their differences peacefully. It's a port of call - home away from home for diplomats, hustlers, entrepreneurs, and wanderers. Humans and aliens wrapped in two million, five hundred thousand tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night. It can be a dangerous place, but it's our last best hope for peace. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is 2258. The name of the place is Babylon 5. - Commander Sinclair Season 2: "The Coming of Shadows" The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. A self-contained world five miles long, located in neutral territory. A place of commerce and diplomacy for a quarter of a million humans and aliens. A shining beacon in space, all alone in the night. It was the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind...the year the Great War came upon us all. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is 2259. The name of the place is Babylon 5. - Captain Sheridan From the synopsis of final Season 2 episode, "The Fall of Night" (at the end of the episode): Londo shouts angrily in the council chamber as Ivanova, in voiceover, explains. "It was the end of the Earth year 2259, and the war was upon us. As anticipated, a few days after the Earth-Centauri treaty was announced, the Centauri widened their war to include many of the Non-Aligned Worlds. And there was another war brewing closer to home, a personal one whose cost would be higher than any of us could imagine." The shopkeeper Zack informed on is forced out of his shop, closed by the Ministry of Peace "pending allegations of sedition." Ivanova, in her quarters, silently and solemnly lights her menorah. "We came to this place because Babylon 5 was our last, best hope for peace. By the end of 2259, we knew that it had failed. But in so doing, it became something greater. As the war expanded, it became our last best hope... for victory. Because sometimes, peace is another word for surrender. And because secrets have a way of getting out." J. Michael Straczynski comment: The narrative [at the end] was a tonal setup for next season. Season 3: "Point of No Return" The Babylon Project was our last, best hope for peace. It failed. But, in the Year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope... for victory. The year is 2260. The place: Babylon 5. - Commander Ivanova Season 4: "No Surrender, No Retreat" It was the year of fire... the year of destruction... the year we took back what was ours. It was the year of rebirth... the year of great sadness... the year of pain... and the year of joy. It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed. The year is 2261. The place: Babylon 5. - Lennier, Zack, G'Kar, Lyta, Vir, Marcus, Delenn, Londo, Franklin, Ivanova, Garibaldi, Sheridan -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com In the future, everyone will be Kibo for 15 milliseconds. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:54 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: BACK: Your Founding400 form Comments: To: "70711.3601@compuserve.com" <70711.3601@xxxxxx.com> -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Carol: And Listers Carol answered my query about her Founding 400 Name with a question I found intriguing: (How would a > householding deal with, say, 2 Carol ambrov Zeor' s?) I printed out her note and I'm filing it in the to-be-entered folder. Carol , are you on the Listserve yet? Actually, I've no idea how Householdings deal with two-of-the-same-name in general. I'd expect it would depend entirely on the folks who associate with both the people of the same name - just as now, in any office, people acquire nick names and tags and titles and so forth. In pre-Zeor times, Zeth's son, Del Rimon couldn't be confused with Rimon or Del and became Delri Farris. But later, when he grew up and Rimon and Del were dead, he was called Rimon by everyone who hadn't known him as a child (which is how the confusion happened about the founder of Zeor -- the founder was Delri but the original Rimon got the credit -- which of course he deserved in Delri's estimation anyway.) We'll see what the people who know all these Carols might do with them. Of course, in spoken-in-person Simelan names can carry nageric suprasegmental phonemes. LL&P JL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:42:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Kandace Klumper wrote: >Anyway, Tom and B'Elana might make a very interesting couple. >And there's been 'tension' between Odo and Kira for years. I doubt that I will >ever be= > comfortable with Worf and Dax, probably mainly because I have written >some fan fic regarding Worf and a fiesty, fiery-haired, petite Human.=20 I hadn't commented on this previously, but I thought I'll throw in my two cents worth. Yes, Tom and B'Elana might make an interesting couple. Worf and Dax seems to be a likely couple also. However, even though there's been 'tension' between Odo and Kira, I don't think this one is that likely. That's the relationship I'd have the most trouble believing. A short term affair maybe, but I doubt that this one would last that long. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: BACK: Your Founding400 form Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:56 PM 9/22/97 -0500, Jacqueline wrote: >Of course, in spoken-in-person Simelan names can carry nageric >suprasegmental phonemes. Within Householdings more than half the native speakers of Simelan are Gens and children. RenSimes have more problems with these subtleties than Companions do. Ergo, they would be useless in day-to-day conversation, and used only in ceremonial rituals. One year when I was in college there were five Barbaras in my dorm: Barbara, Barb, Barbie, Bobbie, and Babs. I was Jean, and Jean Simon was Jeanie. Words do it just fine. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:42 PM 9/22/97 -0400, Larry wrote: > However, even >though there's been 'tension' between Odo and Kira, I don't think this >one is that likely. That's the relationship I'd have the most trouble >believing. A short term affair maybe, but I doubt that this one would >last that long. Either neither will ever be able to form a long-term relationship, or they were made for one another. Both are badly damaged people who have made successful lives for themselves despite it. Neither can return home, even though home exists. Both have found a home in the artificial environment of DS9. It would be interesting if the writers decided to work on that relationship. If Odo were just not terminally shy, something might come of it. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Voyager -- change I wrote: >>However, even though there's been 'tension' between Odo and Kira, I don't think >>this one is that likely. Jean Lorrah replied: >Either neither will ever be able to form a long-term relationship, or they >were made for one another. Both are badly damaged people who have made >successful lives for themselves despite it. Neither can return home, even >though home exists. Both have found a home in the artificial environment of >DS9. It would be interesting if the writers decided to work on that >relationship. If Odo were just not terminally shy, something might come of it. You have a point. However, I doubt that the writers are likely to work on that aspect of things. Besides, Odo has already been shown to be terminally shy. How would they get around that? I'm inclined to think that nothing lasting will come of a relationship between Odo and Kira. If the writers write that in, they'll have to go some before it seems believable to me. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK:Top Fifteen Romance Novel Opening Lines (fwd) In a message dated 97-09-22 11:57:40 EDT, zeor@xxxxxx.NET writes: << 4> "'Miss Savannah, is there room for both of us in that hoop skirt?' Chandler mocked with a slight bow and a sweep of his top hat." >> AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL...I have just the romance list to copy this too....[grooooooan] CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:51:36 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: New Answers to an Old Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >WHY DID THE CHICKEN CROSS THE ROAD? > >FOX MULDER: You saw it cross the road with your own eyes. How >many more chickens have to cross the road before you believe it? > >JERRY SEINFELD: Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why >doesn't anyone ever think to ask, "What the heck was this >chicken doing walking around all over the place anyway?" > >BILL GATES: I have just released the new Chicken Office 2000, >which will not only cross roads, but it will lay eggs, file your >important documents AND balance your checkbook. Unfortunately, >when it divides 3 by 2 it gets 1.4999999999. > >OLIVER STONE: The question is not "Why did the chicken cross >the road?" But is rather "Who was crossing the road at the same >time, whom we overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken >crossing?" > >GRANDPA: In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the >road. Someone told us that the chicken had crossed the road, >and that was good enough for us. > >ERNEST HEMINGWAY: To die. In the rain. > >COLONEL HARLAN SANDERS: I missed one? > >DILBERT: I hate it when the title gives away the plot! Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:15:22 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: It's creeping up on the Big Names: A Question for the Pros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia Tenen wrote: > > Re Spyder Robinson's letter -- Jean, that's awful! > > But do these sales help the author at all, particularly with reference to > the problems Spyder wrote about? > > If SF Book Club sales *don't* count towards an author's popularity and > salability according to the CorpPublishers, then I won't buy new releases > from the club any more -- I'll buy them from a bookstore. > > Not that that's a solution to the problem. But I'd like to know anyhow. > > Cynthia Ok. I'm not a pro yet, but I've read a lot about the business, and according to one of the books I read, book club sales produce smaller royalties to the author - which is in itself an argument (to me) against buying from a book club. And yes, buying from a bookstore *is* a solution to the problem. The more of us buy new books from obscure authors from bookstores, the more likely it is that the bookstores will ask the distributors for obscure authors - and that the general public (TM?) will get to see those authors' names in print. My husband and I almost singlehandedly brought Roger Zelazny back into Brisbane bookstores by insisting to the manager of each bookstore that no, we didn't want another copy of Nine Princes, we wanted a copy of Sign of Chaos. Do you know how much shelf space *ten* paperbacks take up? If you have two copies of each? . And they bought 'A Night in the Lonesome October', too.. . If you *know* a book is in print, and its not available at your local bookstore, go to *every bookstore in your town* and insist that you want that book. Don't order it, just make a nuisance of yourself. Tell them you'll try at the next bookstore, sigh, and walk out. Come back in a week and see if its there. If your bookstores are like ours, it will be - and other books by that author will be, too. And THAT will defeat Robinson's Doom. :) Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:06:20 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: Re: WORK:Top Fifteen Romance Novel Opening Lines (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you like this sort of bad first line humor, check out: http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ The Web site of the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest. The opening lines of the worst novels never written. This is the same guy who publishes the "It was a Dark and Stormy Night" books. Of course, it would be better if *I* had won this year... To tie this into S~G, JL has emphasized the importance of grabbing the reader in the first line. My Entry for 1997: "As the _Dying Swan _ spurted from the momship's belly, worldkiller starbombs gestating beneath savage winglets, to featherfall upon the somnolent globe, Li-Hon Auletek, the Living Buddha of the Universal Pacifist Church, parted his lips in a wolverinesque sneer. " Category: Science Fiction -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Lynda M. Tatad" Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Larry writes: > > You have a point. However, I doubt that the writers are likely >to work on that aspect of things. Besides, Odo has already been shown >to be terminally shy. How would they get around that? I'm inclined >to think that nothing lasting will come of a relationship between Odo >and Kira. If the writers write that in, they'll have to go some before >it seems believable to me. > >Larry Ulrey >ulrey@xxxxxx.com I just saw a repeat episode of DS9 where the crew of the Defiant finds a planet of colonists who were their descendants from a crash landing 200 years prior (one of those time travel-rip in the space/time continuum things)... and the 200 year old Odo was NOT as shy about telling Kira his true feelings (since he had so much time to regret it, thanks to her past-self dying due to radiation of a sort). His 200 year old self merged with his present day self and the present time Odo now knows everything that happened between Kira and his OTHER self. So, the writers were definitely working on a way to help the "terminally" shy Odo express his feelings to Kira. Whew! Did that come out confusing to non- Voyager viewers?? Lynda lyndatatad@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:10:24 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Lynda M Tatad Subject: Re: Voyager- change On Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:10 -0700 JoAnn Lee writes: >Margaret Carter wrote: > >Tom and B.? Worf and Dax!?! Dax has that older sentient 'worm' >within >her...? Odo and Kira!? Odo's not a shapeshifter anymore, right? Are >these couples genetically compatible? I _have_ missed alot... > >> LL&P, >> Margaret It's been done before. Alexander's Mother (Worf's son) was half Klingon and half human, as is B'elana. So B'elana and Tom should have no problems physicaly (only Klingons are a little rougher during love making). I like the idea of Worf and Dax together, they've been working on that story for a while... and the 'symbiant' (sp?) in her has had experience with Klingons in the past to understand the culture, but her host body (Judzia sp?) is still that of a young woman with her own emotions and thoughts combined with Dax. Oda was able to become a shapeshifter after a dying infant shapeshifter melded with him. Star Trek is trying to show in it's own way that people of different races/species can love each other. It's just their way of commenting on inter-racial relations of our time. Lynda :-) --------- End forwarded message ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Voyager -- change "Lynda M. Tatad" wrote: >I just saw a repeat episode of DS9 where the crew of the Defiant finds >a planet of colonists who were their descendants from a crash landing >200 years prior (one of those time travel-rip in the space/time >continuum things)... and the 200 year old Odo was NOT as shy about >telling Kira his true feelings (since he had so much time to regret >it, thanks to her past-self dying due to radiation of a sort). His >200 year old self merged with his present day self and the present >time Odo now knows everything that happened between Kira and his OTHER >self. So, the writers were definitely working on a way to help the >"terminally" shy Odo express his feelings to Kira. I hadn't seen that episode. So maybe the writers are working on a way around that problem. I'm still not sure how well this will work though. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:31:33 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK:Top Fifteen Romance Novel Opening Lines (fwd) In a message dated 97-09-22 22:00:03 EDT, you write: << My Entry for 1997: "As the _Dying Swan _ spurted from the momship's belly, worldkiller starbombs gestating beneath savage winglets, to featherfall upon the somnolent globe, Li-Hon Auletek, the Living Buddha of the Universal Pacifist Church, parted his lips in a wolverinesque sneer. " Category: Science Fiction >> Ugh! That was really.....bad You know though...we all laugh about "it was a dark and stormy night..." and just roar over this line about what NOT to use...and do you know, I picked up a romance one day and opened it and that was the First line...but the way it was used....worked PERFECTLY...I was amazed...it was worked in to be humorous type opening...... i would have never thought of doing that:) CherylW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: ST: Odo and Kira Why wouldn't a relationship between them be believable? They have been friends for a long time; Odo has supported Kira through the ups and downs of her other relationships, and they have strong professional respect for each other, too. That's a good foundation for love. (What ever happened to the First Minister? I must have missed a critical episode or two. Did Kira decide an affair with a world-famous political figure was too stressful?) What I wonder about is Odo's sexuality -- something not likely to be explored on network TV. (Fanfic topic!) If the changelings are amorphous blobs in their natural form, one would think they are either asexual (reproducing by a form of budding seems likeliest, considering that golden pool on their home world) or hermaphroditic. Yet the ones we've met seem to be definitely male or female. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Odo's sexuality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Margaret writes, >What I wonder about is Odo's sexuality -- something not likely to be explored >on network TV. (Fanfic topic!) Hoo boy! You do miss all the important episodes, don't you Margaret? It has been very definitely established that Odo is fully functional--and with him you get some tingly Miltonic angel-blending, too. Neat Trek trick: you can show a graphic sex scene as long as what the people are doing isn't standard human intercourse. Trust the puritanical censors to have no imagination whatsoever. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:31:12 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donna Halper Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What's ironic about all of this is that in real life, Kira (Nana Visitor) just had Bashir's (Siddig el Fadil, re-named Alexander Siddig) baby, and the two of them have been together for a couple of years. I wonder why they haven't developed those two as a story line, but then, I do want to see Odo have a little happiness in his life... (if they had a kid, would it be a shapeshifter?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: ST: Odo and Kira Margaret Carter wrote: >Why wouldn't a relationship between them be believable? ---Snip--- >What I wonder about is Odo's sexuality -- something not likely to be explored >on network TV. (Fanfic topic!) If the changelings are amorphous blobs in >their natural form, one would think they are either asexual (reproducing by a >form of budding seems likeliest, considering that golden pool on their home >world) or hermaphroditic. Yet the ones we've met seem to be definitely male >or female. That's part of what makes this seem unlikely to me. After all, even though Odo _looks_ humanoid, he's not. That seems to be something the writers are ignoring. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:59:13 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: Voyager -- change Donna Halper wrote: >What's ironic about all of this is that in real life, Kira (Nana Visitor) >just had Bashir's (Siddig el Fadil, re-named Alexander Siddig) baby, and the >two of them have been together for a couple of years. I wonder why they >haven't developed those two as a story line, Good question. To me, Bashir and Kira would seem to be a more likely couple than Odo and Kira. >but then, I do want to see Odo >have a little happiness in his life... (if they had a kid, would it be a >shapeshifter?) For that matter, are they even sufficiently genetically compatible that they can have a kid. Since Odo isn't really humanoid, that would seem doubtful. Larry Ulrey ulrey@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:40:40 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Subject: HUM: Fractured History... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got this a while ago on another list. Given the academic bent of this list, I thought it might be appreciated. I always get a kick out of these--ever since I a scholastic book club collection in grammar school. ----------------------------------- [Editor's Note: There are a lot of these around. I wonder if they actually come from essays or people make them up. Anyway, this one isn't bad.] Those who forget history--and the English language--may be condemned to mangle both. Historian Anders Henriksson, a five year veteran of the university classroom, has faithfully recorded his freshman students' more striking insights into European history. Possibly as an act of vengeance, Henriksson has assembled these fractured fragments into a chronological narrative from the Middle Ages to the present. During the Middle Ages, everyone was middle aged. Church and state were co-operated. Middle Evil society was made up of monks, lords, and surfs. After a revival of infantile commerce, merchants appeared. Those roamed from town to town exposing themselves and organizing big fairies in the countryside. The Crusades were expeditions by Christians who were seeking to free the holy land (the "Home Town" of Christ) from the Islams. In the 1400 hundreds most Englishmen were perpendicular. A class of ycowls arose. Finally, Europe caught the Black Death. It was spread from port to port by inflected rats. The plague also helped the emergence of English as the national language of England, France, and Italy. The Middle Ages slimpared to a halt. The renesance bolted in from the blue. Life reeked with joy. Italy became robust, and more individuals felt the value of their human being. Italy, of course, was much closer to the rest of the world, thanks to northern Europe. Man was determined to civilise himself and his brothers, even if heads had to roll! It became sheik to be educated. Europe was full of incredable churches with great art bulging out of their doors. Renaisance merchants were beautiful and almost lifelike. The Reformnation happened when German nobles resented that tithes were going to the pope, thus enriching Catholic coiffures. The popes were usually Catholic. An angry Martin Luther nailed 95 theocrats to a church door. Theologically, Luthar was into reorientation mutation. Anabaptist services tended to be migratory. Monks went right on seeing themselves as worms. The last Jesuit priest died in the 19th century. After the refirmation were wars both foreign and infernal. If the Spanish could gain the Netherlands they would have a stronghold throughout northern Europe that would include Italy, Burgangy, central Europe and India thus surrounding France. The German Emperor's lower passage was blocked by the French for years and years. Louis XIV became King of the Sun. He gave people food and artillery. If he didn't like someone, he sent them to the gallows to row for the rest of their lives. Vauban was the royal minister of flirtation. In Russia, the 17th century was known as the time of the bounding of the serfs. Russian nobles wore clothes to humor Peter the Great. Peter filled his government with accidental people; orthodox priests became government antennae. The enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltaire wrote a book called Candy that got him into trouble. Philosophers were unknown yet, and the fundamental stake was one of religious tolerance slightly confused with defeatism. France was in a serious state. Taxation was a great drain on the state budget. The French revolution was accomplished before it happened. The revolution catapaulted into Napolean. Napoleon was ill with bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained. History started in 1815. Industrialization was precipitating in England. Problems were so complexicated that in Paris, out of a population of 1 million people, 2 million able bodies were on the loose. The middle class was tired and needed a rest. The old order could see the lid holding down new ideas beginning to shake. Among the goals of the chartists were universal suferage and an anal parliment. A new time zone of national unification roared over the horizon. Founder of the new Italy was Cavour, an intelligent Sardine from the north. Culture formented from its tip to its top. Dramatized were adventures in seduction and abortion. Music reeked with reality. Wagner was master of music, and when he died they labeled his seat "historical." World War I broke out about 1912-1914. At war people get killed, and then they aren't people any more, but friends. Peace was proclaimed at Versigh, which was attended by General Loid, Primal Minister of England. President Wilson arrived with 14 pointers. In 1917, Lenin revolted Russia. Germany was displaced after WW1. This gave rise to Hitler, who remilitarized the Rineland over a squirmish between Germany and France. Mooscalini rested his foundations on 8 million bayonets and invaded Hi Lee Salasy. Germany invaded Poland, France invaded Belgium, and Russia invaded everybody. War screeched to an end when a nukleer explosion was dropped on Heroshima. A whole generation had been wipe out, and their forlorne families were left to pick up the peaces. The last stage is us. ----------------------------------- Follow Your Bliss!! Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:10:28 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: "Postsyndrome #2" Project I just heard from Beth Phillips who is working on a new edition of "Postsyndrome." I sent her printouts of the S~G sexuality posts from the listserve discussions. Here is her reply: "Good to hear from you. Got your letter and then the package of online stuff. I've read thru it but need to do so again and see if I'll use any of it. I think there's a couple of people I want to contact. Also got a note from Ronnie Bob about Addresses. Only info I have on Naomi Gail's computer is that it's old Circa 1985. I never had any real problems with it. I have books for it, too. BUT, I have zero money to ship it. I'm happy with the one I have now (IBM Personal ComputerAT). I need the printer -- use it every day. Naomi Gail's is a Kaypro." So from what I can figure about this letter, the "Postsyndrome" project is progressing, and a home is needed for an old Kaypro computer (without printer). Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: CONS:Darkover Schedule!!!! -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- This came a long time ago from Charles Butler, who does the esoteric track of programming for Darkover, and I didn't SEE it in my inbox which has now over 600 unread posts. JL Tuesday, 29-Jul-97 04:54 PM Hope you have some 2nd edition shirts for Darkover. I can't afford the money right now. I'm preparing the Darkover programming this year, and the focus seems to be astrology. Blessing Bird is preparing a class on medicine wheels as Native American astrology, I know that you have extensive things to say on astrology and the Tarot. I'm trying to find someone who may know the someone who wrote the article on Darkovan astrology, it was rather fascinating. Other than that will be our playful ritual "Moosemas" and the Fallen Stars ritual. So far: Friday afternoon 4:00 pm, warding the space Friday evening 6:00 pm, Sabbath service Friday evening 7:00 pm, TBD Friday evening 8:00 pm, TBD Friday evening 9:00 pm, Moosemas Friday evening 11:00 pm, Friends Circle Saturday morning 10:00 am, Native American astrology Saturday noon, 12:00 noon, Darkovan and other non-Earth based astrology. Saturday 2:00 pm - 6:00 pm, Lichtenberg Tarot & astrology. Saturday 6:00 pm - 7:00 pm, Falling Stars service Saturday 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm, Shiltpron Saturday 10:00 pm - Open Saturday 12:00 midnight (after hallelujah) - Family? Circle Sunday 10:00 am - The Web, for those who come after. Sunday 1:00 pm - Closing the Wards Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:59:20 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Fwd: WORK: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) Comments: cc: Karen Litman , Anne Pinzow -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: This didn't post properly, so I'm reposting it to the List. JL Listfolk and Workshoppers: Thank you Jean for reposting the Spider Robinson item. He's shocked. I'm not. I saw it coming before it hit Jean and me, dragged my feet all through the late 80's because I mis-estimated the speed with which the wave would hit. I have, however, been telling you folks this for a year, and started saying it at cons two years before that. It's over guys - pack it in. Forget paper as a medium of fiction-distribution. It's not worth the effort to write books for print anymore and hasn't been for 10 years. Check out the ad revenues for the NEW NETWORK SHOWS on tv. Bad news there - - they're blaming on folks watching cable. Cable revenues are picking up, true, but not percentage wise to account for it all It's the NET folks - that's where fiction-distribution is moving. There's no revenue model for it yet -- but that's why we're HERE now. To build one. Remember my "conduit" analogy from last spring's Work posts. Those fiction delivery conduits which are the wrong size and shape for our kind of fiction are DUST already. What we're doing on this List is to create the new CONDUITS and some of them shaped to carry the kind of product we want an endless supply of. Not just S~G but "Intimate Adventure" and a widely related set of genres that can suddenly become commercially viable. Spider wrote; Times have changed. If you love books, you must now start to change = your thinking, and come to see them as precious, evanescent fireflies, which flicker briefly and then are no more. If you do not stay alert for = them, and grab them on sight, they will probably never be reprinted: the = concept of backlist is on its way to the ash-heap. All of us who put words in a row for your enjoyment are in serious no-shit danger, and we need your = help and support. I know *I* do. JL here: At 48 he's just those few years younger than my 55 that he doesn't remember that this EVANESCENT AS FIREFLIES mode of existence for sf books on store shelves is the REGULAR way things always were for sf/f from the beginning. It's what I consider "normal" and it's a shock for him that we're finally returning to normal. I actually find it somewhat comforting in an emotional way. Since the babyboomers started buying sf, the world CHANGED DRASTICALLY. Now they've stopped buying sf and are spending their money on computers and ISPs , and their spare reading time is split between tv and email/website building etc. The boomer-echo generation (which is bigger than the boomers and in grammar school now) will not become PAPER BOOK buyers. You can't get them to read a book, though they read and write incessantly on computers. The only sf/f they know is from tv and movies. If sf/f is your field, RETHINK the medium that will carry your message, and think creatively about how the nature of the medium and the commercial distribution of that medium must inevitably affect the shape and nature of the MESSAGE. To those beginning to learn to write now, the ONLY market that matters a hoot is the boomer-echo market which will have disposable income in about 10 years - enough disposable income to jerk this whole country around and upside down. The echo is louder than the boom! Remember that and you'll never get caught surprised as Robinson has been. Actually, as a colleague of his, I find myself somewhat embarrassed that he's surprised. I vaguely recall mentioning my take on this event to him at some point at some con, and he didn't believe me. Of course, so many such conversations happen, I'm sure he doesn't remember it -- I'm sure many others have said the same in his hearing. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ------- FORWARD, End of original message ------- Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:49:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: NY Times Article on Fan Fiction -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Robyn wrote (way back on Aug 20) -- in reply to a query: > > > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bently/fanfic/fanfic.html > > > > (I have never seen a web address such as www-personal before and that may be > a typo, but it is how it appears in the article) > > > > The www-personal part is fine--I got to her home page with no trouble. The > fanfic page doesn't exist, though. > > --Robyn The page may not exist, but Jean and I have been the subject of at least one article we know about in the NYT on fanfic (on NTM and Kraith) and Sime~Gen has been extensively reviewed in the NYT book review by Gerald Jonas -- one article he did was very long. And remarkably favorable, too. There must be a way to access "Periodical" stuff like that via the net by now -- isn't there? Or is microfiche the only record of such things? Are people in the future going to think the world started in the year 2000 because there will be no records of anything surviving the change in media? Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Odo's sexuality Comments: To: Jean Lorrah -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: > Margaret writes, > >What I wonder about is Odo's sexuality -- something not likely to be explored > >on network TV. (Fanfic topic!) There is a wonderful fanzine love story -- I have it here somewhere and I've forgotten where and what the title is but I love it! -- about Odo having a real hot affair with a human woman. They have a marvelous relationship that just blossoms into sexuality. They also established that shapeshifters propagate during shapelessness. Then they did that ep where Odo finally gets a woman in bed and melts all over her and WOW. I think they read fanzines. Or fanzine writers just think faster and get there first. I still prefer fanzines! LL&P JL Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:53:53 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) In a message dated 97-09-24 15:00:35 EDT, zeor@xxxxxx.NET writes: << The boomer-echo generation (which is bigger than the boomers and in grammar school now) will not become PAPER BOOK buyers. You can't get them to read a book, though they read and write incessantly on computers. I don't know about this...I have a child in grade school and one in her first year of high school. BOTH are avid readers. They LOVE to go to the bookstore...Christina has many MANY friends that read....(older child)and our libraries have summer reading programs(as do our schools during the year)which reward the kids for how many books they read. Of course, my kids play on the computer....they love American Online....We also play spades together some nights and board games.....but they still read. As a matter of fact, my daughter can't get enough books...and my son(bless his dear sweet little haert)wants to read mama's books when they come out(so, I'll end up sitting down by him and helping him struggle through the hard words until he finally gets bored since it's about two yeras above his level of comprehension). I just can't see people not wanting to read...there is so much more you get in a book than in a movie or tv show... CherylW (Just my opinion) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:36:45 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: NY Times Article on Fan Fiction In-Reply-To: <199709242048.QAA07717@xxxxxx.com> from "Jacqueline Lichtenberg" at Sep 24, 97 04:49:37 pm Content-Type: text JL wrote: > The page may not exist, but Jean and I have been the subject of at least one > article we know about in the NYT on fanfic (on NTM and Kraith) and Sime~Gen > has been extensively reviewed in the NYT book review by Gerald Jonas -- one > article he did was very long. And remarkably favorable, too. Weird. Usually when Gerald Jonas recommends _anything_ I run, quickly, in the opposite direction. His tastes and mine are approximately 175 degrees opposite to each other. Guess S~G falls in that last narrow band. (Unless, of course, he was reviewing MT and Rensime!, in which case I stand by my second sentence...) > There must be a way to access "Periodical" stuff like that via the net by > now -- isn't there? Or is microfiche the only record of such things? Right now, microfilm (unless you happen to have stockpiled the original papers, which almost nobody has the space to do.) Stuff doesn't get on the Web unless someone puts it there, and large-scale scanning projects aren't as easy as getting one page (or even one novel) on the net. The _Times_, I wouldn't be surprised if someone put it on the net eventually, but right now we're waiting for scanners that do better than the present generation. (Which is 99.95% accurate, but that still amounts to two typos/page. Not _too_ bad for text, but imagine what that would do on the stock-market price pages.) Plus, microfilm lasts for 300+ years. We don't know about computer media. (Recopy, you say? Sure? But every five years? That's a lot of money into disks that you'll just have to replace in five years anybody, and _nobody_ knows the lifespan of magnetic media.) > Are people in the future going to think the world started in the year 2000 > because there will be no records of anything surviving the change in media? Actually, they'll think the world ended in 2000 because no print records survived from beyond that time. In fact, the Great Crash of 2113 destroyed all electronic records, including the Complete Guide To Surviving Your First Transfer (combined SIME/GEN edition), which explains why the world ends up in such a sorry state... Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:57:33 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: NY Times Article on Fan Fiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:49 PM 9/24/97 -0500, Jacqueline wrote: >There must be a way to access "Periodical" stuff like that via the net by >now -- isn't there? Or is microfiche the only record of such things? > >Are people in the future going to think the world started in the year 2000 >because there will be no records of anything surviving the change in media? The New York Times is on-line. Get your free subscription at http://www.nytimes.com . I don't know how long it will remain free of charge; for example, practically all the MSU faculty who used to subscribe now read it on line on the day it comes out instead of three days later, with no postage charges and no recycling! So they are losing subscriptions outside the NYC area. I guess they've been on-line for a year or two, and all the articles for that period are available if you can figure out what key words to use in their search engine to bring them up. But older articles are put up as needed--for example, when Hong Kong was handed over to China, they put on-line several articles from their morgue that were over a century old. And of course those will now stay available. But the reviews of our books won't go on-line until we make it BIG enough to rate a new indepth article. At least at that point it will be _easy_ for them to locate and post those reviews; they were already doing everything on computer in the 1980's, so those archives are on disk or tape backup somewhere. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:05:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: WORK: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:53 PM 9/24/97 -0400, Cheryl wrote: >I have a child in grade school and one in her first >year of high school. BOTH are avid readers. They LOVE to go to the >bookstore...Christina has many MANY friends that read....(older child)and our >libraries have summer reading programs(as do our schools during the >year)which reward the kids for how many books they read. > >I just can't see people not wanting to read...there is so much more you get >in a book than in a movie or tv show... Your kids grew up in a house with books, and choose friends who have the same interests they do. Furthermore, they are still young enough to have--*gasp!*-- leasure time. Wait till they hit high school. Then they will have to start making choices...and their peers will be on line. It is also a very rare thing to share a book on a date (yes, I did it, but then I dated fen). Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:08:29 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Odo's sexuality << Hoo boy! You do miss all the important episodes, don't you Margaret? It has been very definitely established that Odo is fully functional--and with him you get some tingly Miltonic angel-blending, too. >> Yes, I must have missed a good scene -- I remember one ep where Odo had a brief affair with a woman who couldn't stick around for some reason, but I don't recall "seeing" anything -- I thought it was all left to the imagination. Maybe I can catch a rerun sometime. (I can certainly agree with the statement about the network censors' lack of imagination, though.) I visualize Odo's protean physiology allowing some truly far-out forms of erotic activity -- something we are definitely not likely to see on TV. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:24:13 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Odo and Kira I definitely agree that interbreeding would be impossible. (Well, they could adopt -- or Kira could receive a donated embryo, or undergo artificial insemination, and bear a child.) However, mutually satisfying sensuality should be readily possible (as mentioned by Jean). My theory of how changelings reproduce is that they merge together to exchange genetic material; then each produces an infant by "budding." Or they could simply split like amoebae, but I don't like that idea. Each "half" would, in that case, presumably be a half-size adult, not the infants we have seen, and the "parent" would effectively cease to exist as an individual. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:30:48 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born I just heard a very brief item on CNN. A recent study suggests that the age of the father affects the gender of the baby. If the father is over 5 years older than the mother then there is 2/3 (I think that's what they said) chance the baby will be a boy. If the father is 5 years younger than the mother the situation is reversed. Could age difference in the parents affect the birth of Simes to Gens and Gens to Simes? Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born In-Reply-To: <19970924.223048.9430.1.JazzS@xxxxxx.com> from "Jacquelyn A Sykes" at Sep 24, 97 10:30:48 pm Content-Type: text Jacquelyn-not-JL wrote: > I just heard a very brief item on CNN. A recent study suggests that the > age of the father affects the gender of the baby. If the father is over 5 > years older than the mother then there is 2/3 (I think that's what they > said) chance the baby will be a boy. If the father is 5 years younger > than the mother the situation is reversed. > > Could age difference in the parents affect the birth of Simes to Gens and > Gens to Simes? Interesting question. We don't really have many statistics on birth ratios. (To be precise, we have _one_: the "if the parents are the same lar, then 2/3 of the kids will be that lar" stat, and most of our stats come from either Householdings or Genfarms; what about across the borders, or in a mostly-Sime junct town?) It might, or it might not. I suspect that if someone can work the stat into a story, we'll find out... Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:36:19 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Jacquelyn-not-JL wrote: [ snip ] >Interesting question. We don't really have many statistics on >birth ratios. (To be precise, we have _one_: the "if the parents >are the same lar, then 2/3 of the kids will be that lar" stat, and >most of our stats come from either Householdings or Genfarms; >what about across the borders, or in a mostly-Sime junct town?) > >It might, or it might not. I suspect that if someone can work the >stat into a story, we'll find out... But the larity of a Tigue channel's child can be told by its gender; Male: Gen, Female: Sime. In _Ambrov Keon_ Tannen Darley's wife (a junct channel) bragged that no children in her family had established for generations. Nedd thought that meant a lot of channels in the family. Laneff (_Rensime_) considers the ratio solid enough to base her initial results on it. There was a paper on the genetics of larity in one of the old zines. IIRC, it had several genes and a lot of the combinations resulted in very early spontaneous abortions. Genfarmers will try very hard to find a method of breeding higher proportions of Gens. if they will succeed is another matter, of course. -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:01:19 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Books and the wave of the future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree with JL that the wave of the future seems to be reading on = the net, but I'm definitely with Kirk and Picard on this. Nothing beats h= olding and feeling a good, honest, 'old-fashioned' book in your hands. I t= hink a contributing factor to 'less' books sold is also the cost. The cost= of the books I usually buy has reason by as much as $3.00 in the last 15 y= ears, but we have only ourselves to blame. Paper, while its source is rene= wable, the fuel required to make it is not. Just my two cents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:16:07 -0600 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Captain Button Subject: OOPS: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wrote: >>Jacquelyn-not-JL wrote: > >[ snip ] > >>Interesting question. We don't really have many statistics on >>birth ratios. (To be precise, we have _one_: the "if the parents >>are the same lar, then 2/3 of the kids will be that lar" stat, and >>most of our stats come from either Householdings or Genfarms; >>what about across the borders, or in a mostly-Sime junct town?) >> >>It might, or it might not. I suspect that if someone can work the >>stat into a story, we'll find out... [ my stuff snipped ] But Jacquelyn-not-JL didn't write any of that, Tony Zbaraschuk did. My apologies to both for the misattribution. -- Captain Button - button@xxxxxx.com "Imagine not that these four walls contain the Mighty Owl of Thebes. For, gentles all, beauty sits most closely to them it can construe." -M. Python ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:17:00 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>I just heard a very brief item on CNN. A recent study suggests that the age of the father affects the gender of the baby. If the father is over 5 years older than the mother then there is 2/3 (I think that's what they said) chance the baby will be a boy. If the father is 5 years younger than the mother the situation is reversed. << Hmm, this is interesting. Chronologically my husband is 5 years older than= me, but from April to December he's 6 years older than me. I got pregnant= in March (while we were 5 years apart) and had a girl in '93. I have a friend who is the same age as my husband but her her spouse is my = age (making him younger than her). They have 3 girls and just recently had= their 4th and last child, a boy. Does this mean people closer in age have a 50/50 chance? I have another fr= iend who's husband is only 4 years older than her and they have 1 girl and = 1 boy. Very interesting indeed. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: WORK: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) Working in a library as I do, I dont quite see the WORLD ENDING AS WE KNOW IT! just yet. Many of the teens have very definite book likes and dislikes. I will say this about the kids of the future: I have gotten more feedback from them via email about my fan-fic web page then I ever did from apa members. Give me the future. Marianne ninetiger@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:19:11 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born << I just heard a very brief item on CNN. A recent study suggests that the age of the father affects the gender of the baby. If the father is over 5 years older than the mother then there is 2/3 (I think that's what they said) chance the baby will be a boy. If the father is 5 years younger than the mother the situation is reversed. Could age difference in the parents affect the birth of Simes to Gens and Gens to Simes? Jacquelyn >> I don't know if these statistics are right for humans, much less our fictional future.... my father was 12 years older than my mother, and I (firstborn) was female. The other child born 7 years after me, was male. However, my brother married a woman almost 14 years older than he was and all of their children were girls. Makes you wonder? Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 00:43:39 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Books and the wave of the future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kandace Klumper wrote: > > I have to agree with JL that the wave of the future seems to be reading on the net, but I'm definitely with Kirk and Picard on this. Nothing beats holding and feeling a good, honest, 'old-fashioned' book in your hands. I think a contributing factor to 'less' books sold is also the cost. The cost of the books I usually buy has reason by as much as $3.00 in the last 15 years, but we have only ourselves to blame. Paper, while its source is renewable, the fuel required to make it is not. > > Just my two cents. I -still- think that what will happen will be niche markets, and niche publishers, niche distributors. Law of the jungle: where there is a food supply, there is something to eat it. Where there is demand, there will be a supplier. And we are proof that there is demand. But individually, books -may- become dearer. Certainly publishing the kind of books -we- like will become something done by small publishers, distributed through a small network to specialty bookstores and postal (or email) customers. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:17:12 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: WORK: It's creeping (readers) I don't view with quite as much alarm, either, because, I, too, live in a house of readers. Yes, our kids grew up with books, and I've always read to them. I still read to the youngest (age 15), while at the same time he's reading to himself on an adult level. His 2 best friends read, also, as well as playing D&D and Magic (which encourage reading). There will always be a minority who insist on books, I believe (even if they eventually turn into hand-held electronic screens instead of paper). Our kids grew up with the awareness (I never said so in explicit words, but the atmosphere surrounded them!) that if we had ever gone overweight on our Navy moving allowance, I would have either paid the surcharge or discarded furniture before giving up any of my books. In one of his essays Isaac Asimov pointed out that serious readers (as opposed to those who will occasionally pick up a book for information, or as an alternative to staring out the window on a long trip) have ALWAYS been in the minority. In past eras, the popular entertainments were bear-baiting, melodrama, vaudeville, movies, etc. Now it's TV and computer games. But books in one form or another have always been wanted and always will. As for electronic vs. paper -- I was surprised to read in the newspaper just yesterday that the households with computers still comprise only 30 percent of the U.S. population. It will be a long time before paper becomes obsolete (I think never, because people will always want the security of hard copies of SOME materials). What DOES alarm me is the disappearance of the backlist. Thank goodness new phenomena such as Amazon.com are stepping in to mitigate that loss at least to some extent. And when books do get on line in a big way, that should keep more of the older ones available. Another thing I really hate to see happening, because of storage limitations, is libraries discarding the musty old novels I used to check out (Marie Corelli and the "Graustark" novels, for instance), so that now all we can get are the latest releases and the established classics (and some of the latter aren't always easy to find, depending on the size of your library system!) -- nothing in between. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:37:20 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: WORK: It's creeping up on the Big Names (long) In a message dated 97-09-24 23:55:41 EDT, a21711f@xxxxxx.MURSUKY.EDU (Jean Lorrah) writes: << thermore, they are still young enough to have--*gasp!*-- leasure time. Wait till they hit high school. Then they will have to start making choices...and their peers will be on line. It is also a very rare thing to share a book on a date >> I have one in high school. No, she hasn't started dating yet...:) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: WORK:Top Fifteen Romance Novel Opening Lines (fwd) -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Workshoppers: Someone posted: > My Entry for 1997: > > "As the _Dying Swan _ spurted from the momship's belly, worldkiller > starbombs gestating beneath savage winglets, to featherfall upon the > somnolent globe, Li-Hon Auletek, the Living Buddha of the Universal > Pacifist Church, parted his lips in a wolverinesque sneer. " > > Category: Science Fiction > >> And Cheryl answered: > > > Ugh! That was really.....bad > > Actually, it's quite a work of art. And as you went on to observe, in the right hands, such a monstrousity can turn out to be artistically valid. Always remember, storytelling isn't the same as court reporting -- we're not accurately depicting reality, we're INTERPRETING it. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:40:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:30 PM 9/24/97 -0500, Jacquelyn wrote: >I just heard a very brief item on CNN. A recent study suggests that the >age of the father affects the gender of the baby. If the father is over 5 >years older than the mother then there is 2/3 (I think that's what they >said) chance the baby will be a boy. If the father is 5 years younger >than the mother the situation is reversed. Interesting. For most of the history of the western world the vast majority of marriages were between young wives and older husbands, and yet there was never a preponderance of males. If the study is correct, other factors (fewer males survived infancy than females; adult males were placed in more physical danger than females in their daily lives) more than evened things out. Just like today, women were about 52% of the population. Today in the western world far more couples are within five years of one another in age, while older women marry younger men far more often than in the past. So why are women still only 52% of the population? Modern medicine means that more males survive infancy, for one thing, while the daily work of the majority of males is in general less physically dangerous than in the past. But...what would happen if women consistently got as good medical care as men do? Anyway, applying this to Simes and Gens, it's doubtful that age will have anything to do with the division. Lifestyle and medical care after Unity will help the Sime population increase, and as has been pointed out before it will eventually reach 50-50. However, under the Tecton there will be a very low percentage of Sime/Gen marriages, which is where the statistic would presumably have significance. However, there is one factor: older women, whether Sime or Gen and no matter what the age of their husbands, would have more problems birthing Simes--but in a subsistence society you simply don't get many women over thirty-five getting pregnant. BTW--I have been thinking about Jacqueline's overall design for the S~G universe that calls for an excess of selyn in order to run a selyn-driven technology. I know the answer. We all know it. Gens can produce far more selyn than Simes need. _Every_ Gen is capable of becoming a capital-D Donor, while most Simes are renSimes. But a Gen who is induced beyond the capacity of his/her Sime partner loses the joy of transfer with that partner. The answer is a class of Donors who forego the joy of transfer for other reasons (money, most probably). They are induced by new technology developed by the Tecton when it sees its grip on society dissolving as more and more S~G couples just go to one another instead of the Sime Centers each month. These Gens never give transfer; they always donate through channels, and their selyn runs the world. The Tecton is happy, because it now controls the world's power source, so it can let go of its need to keep Sime from Gen divided. Most people, Sime and Gen, are happy, because they are free to find their natural partners. And the special Gens are happy because they live in the lap of luxury with the freedom to do anything they please with their lives...except provide direct trasfer, which they have never had, so they do not miss. But of course they also live with that constant nagging sense of something missing from their lives. There is definitely a novel in these special Gens. Don't we _all_ live with that nagging sense of something missing in our lives? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:59:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Emily Brunson Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970925184004.006aa2a4@xxxxxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:40 PM 9/25/97 -0500, Jean wrote: >The answer is a class of Donors who forego the joy of transfer for other >reasons (money, most probably). They are induced by new technology >developed by the Tecton when it sees its grip on society dissolving as more >and more S~G couples just go to one another instead of the Sime Centers each >month. > >There is definitely a novel in these special Gens. Don't we _all_ live with >that nagging sense of something missing in our lives? Jean Wow. This sounds like a wonderful, wonderful story idea. The parallels are obvious: an act that holds precious significance to most beings, reduced to dollar signs. From recruitment to recognizing the price of the tradeoff -- to a life that is wonderful in every way save one. What is the cost? There are two clear differences between this idea and prostitution. First, naturally, it is state-sanctioned. And second, it is an act not originally designed for procreation -- creating life -- but for sustenance -- life maintaining. There might be a certain amount of pride involved: I am contributing in a way that hardly anyone can match, I am important, I am proud of what I do. A kind of noblesse oblige, if you will. Overlying a much deeper sense of loss, of missing what others clearly have. The dichotomy would be overwhelming. What kind of person is able to function well facing this sort of lifestyle? Those who are avaricious will clearly prosper. But what about a more sensitive soul? What about someone so dazzled by the glowing promise of success and recognition that they enter into a kind of Faustian bargain, not realizing that this pot of supposed gold has a nasty surprise right under the first layer? I've been jarred out of lurkerdom by this -- what a wonderful, angst-filled concept. I should think it would make an absolutely compelling book. Em, slinking off again ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:01:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Books and the wave of the future -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Kandace wrote: > The cost of the > books I usually buy has reason by as much as $3.00 in the last 15 years, but we > have only ourselves to blame. Paper, while its source is renewable, the fuel > required to make it is not. > Cost of paper has been a gigantic factor in increasing book prices, however, an even bigger factor is the "economy of scale". What killed book publishing before the net is ready to take its place is THE NEW TAX LAW (the last big one, not this year's). They created a mess where publishers who print a lot of books now while paper's cheap and warehouse them and then sell them over a period of years have to pay taxes on those idle books each and every year -- over and above what it costs to warehouse! Therefore, PRINT RUNS were cut to the absolute minimum while paper prices were skyrocketing -- and then the reprint decision was based on how much they'd have to raise the price of the reprint to account for the new paper price. And so on. As a result the turnover in book stores is accelerated, the shelf life cut in half, and the bias is strongly toward publishing a new book rather than reprinting one that sold out its first printing. The computers make that decision based on the speed with which the books sell. And speed can be accomplished only by HUGE advertising -- which sf never gets at the midlist level. SF always differed from other forms in that BACKLIST sells -- books sell slowly but steadily. SF's sales profile is just different from all other forms, and always has been. So the price factor is driven by paper prices (which, true is an energy and chemical-pollution-cleanup issue -- as a chemist, I know that paper plants are one of our biggest chemical polluters and they are expensive to clean up . The new plants have a lot of recycle and closed-system waste control, but it's still not enough. And those plants produce an expensive product for which there's a massively growing world wide demand. New plants have just come on line, and the only reason their capacity isn't yet maxed out is that the growth rate abroad slacked off with the recession in Japan. That won't last.) And the price of books is driven by TAXES on the publisher. And the price of books is driven by the ECONOMY OF SCALE. The more copies you print, the less it costs per copy. There's the big factor for this year - scale. It's what's feeding the downtrend and sucking us all into a black hole. And the web isn't ready to deliver fiction yet. There are no "conduits" yet -- so we get to start to build some. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Is There Anyone From Germany On This List? -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk; We have a long-time fan in Germany, Eva Reimers. One of our Australian fen just mentioned a German penpal who would be interested in seeing a German edition of the Sime~Gen novels. (a couple of the novels (House and Unto) were translated but the translation is TERRIBLE, and Eva reads them in English.) She's a librarian and a Trek fan (sound familiar?) So I wanted to know if anyone in Germany is on this List yet? Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Emily wrote: > > Wow. This sounds like a wonderful, wonderful story idea. comment snipped: if you haven't read it, go back and read it carefully. It's brilliant. And Emily concludes: > > I've been jarred out of lurkerdom by this -- what a wonderful, angst- filled > concept. I should think it would make an absolutely compelling book. > Yes, you're right, "compelling" -- but you know what you've done? You (and Jean and the others posting on this thread) have created the one thing I've wanted desperately to see in Sime~Gen all these years -- stories that might be published IN the Sime~Gen Universe for a Sime~Gen readership! This is the stuff that people living in that situation would fantasize incessantly about - the stuff of which their tv shows would be made, their classic theater, their nursery rhymes. For any of this to become commercial, there has to be a huge readership conversant with the intricacies of Sime~Gen. And then these books would be perceived as 'better" than anything else ever written in Sime~Gen. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary C Arens Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Re: why men don't outnumber women more-- Totally unscientific, but my aunt reported that my grandmother said that whenever a lot of male babies were born there would be a war. Since she died the year I was born I don't know where she got that idea, but she lived through a lot of wars! I also don't know when she thought the war would start--at the time the babies were being born (some kind of unconscious response or part of a larger pattern?) or when the babies were grown (pressure of too many males and/or lack of females? I know too many male animals in a house isn't peaceful!) Mary @xxxxxx.~>-- Arensmc@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:02:38 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:08 09/25/1997 -0500, you wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- >Yes, you're right, "compelling" -- but you know what you've done? You (and >Jean and the others posting on this thread) have created the one thing I've >wanted desperately to see in Sime~Gen all these years -- stories that might >be published IN the Sime~Gen Universe for a Sime~Gen readership! > >This is the stuff that people living in that situation would fantasize >incessantly about - the stuff of which their tv shows would be made, their >classic theater, their nursery rhymes. Hmmm...would there also be Sime~Gen pornography? And perhaps a show with interaction between Simes and Gens along the lines of "Alien Nation"? Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:21:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Elizabeth Sheeks Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Re the remark about "Alien Nation"--I watched the show for the 2 seasons it was on, and loved it! I'm curious, does anyone on this list KNOW what that show was about? If not, here's a brief summary of the show. Ten years ago, circa 1998, (so I'm terrible with dates--very odd for a history major, but it WAS 10 years ago) a huge ship set down in the middle of the Mojave Desert in Arizona. It set off a huge to-do, especially when we discovered the ship was actually a slave ship, carrying something like 3 million beings. These slaves were shocked as well, to find that they had landed on our world. They call themselves Tenctonese and say they used to be free, living on another world. Now, 10 years later, these people have started to assilimate into our society. Problem is, it's pretty hard to do. They've got bald heads with spots on them,no ears, the men and the women have babies--the women first, and the men last. There is three sexes--male, female, and binnanium. The binnanium is what I call the fertilizer--he, um, starts the process of conception in the female and the male finishes up. Also, they have a serious reaction to salt water--they get burned, and if they stay in it too long they die. See what I mean by hard to assilimate? The show focused on two cops, one human and one Tenctonese and how they deal with the alien in the other person. To the Tenctonese, humans are aliens, and vice versa. Fascinating show...loved it. How would the Sime/Gen universe react to such a show? Ok, let's call it "The Border", because a line literally divides Sime/Gen. Set it in the time after Unity, but before the borders dissolve. The Gen would probably be in Gen Patrol, and the Sime a channel in a center right ON the border. Hey, gotta to have conflict here! If no conflict, no show. Look at the daytime shows--why do you think people watch that stuff? Because everyone lives in peace together, harmony and light? No way! It's fun to watch Vivian from DAYS try to manipulate people, and fail--or succeed. Anyway, back to The Border. The Gen has two children close to changeover, so he's quite concerned--one of his duties is to kill children in changeover. The channel is trying to change that attitude, but at times it seems impossible. Now, in the first episode, I'd set up both situations (two hours premiere, probably) and then let them collide. The Patrolman finds out that new regulations require him to Donate--the poobahs in New Washington figure that'll reduce the death rate of Patrolmen. (think about all the stuff Patrolmen have to do---ride to local towns, chase fugitives who sometimes are Distect or junct, do paperwork (yep--they still have red tape) and, uh, kill kids in changeover.) It'd make sense for Patrolmen to donate, to avoid kids getting fixed on them. (Jean, do Gen Patrol have women? I know Sime Patrol do, but I don't think Gens do. And if so, when did the Gen Patrol accept women?) This guy is big and tough, but his friends have to knock him out and drag him to the center--he HAS to donate, or lose his job. The channel has to deal with this out cold Patrolman, while dealing with other crisises--an obnoxious channel--somewhat like the guy in the Den & Rital stories, regulations from the Tecton, (thank you, PTB!) etc. The rest of the series would deal with both's growing friendship, and the changeover of the Gen's channel son (?) The show probably would be something like that. If you have a better idea, let us know. LS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born I << Re: why men don't outnumber women more-- >> I'm not too sure who wrote the above quote, BUT if I remember my biology and science classes right (and I may be corrected on this by someone who knows more) ---- isn't the male less likely to be "born" because it has something to do with less genetic material being a part of the zygote? Something I remember about females having more genetic material in the XX sperm than the male XY sperm,. so more females tend to be born than males? As far as males and female animals being more likely to fight in a group. Most of you haven't met my current group of 6 cats (all spayed or neutered, but the 3 month old kitten). I now have 2 males, and 4 females, and the girls are the "bad boys." They fight and hiss as much if not more between each other, and the males, as the males themselves do. I've got two "little tomboys" who really go at it. One is about 5 and the other about 7 years old. So at least in that group, the arguement is shot full of holes. Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:25:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Encryption amendment Comments: cc: cormo@xxxxxx.com, helen.roulston@xxxxxx.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Amendment to Encryption Bill Tossed Out by Nancy Weil, IDG News Service September 25, 1997 The U.S. House Commerce Committee voted 35 to 16 last night to throw out an amendment to the Security and Freedom through Encryption (SAFE) Act, which would have given government agencies access to encrypted data. The SAFE Act was proposed in part to loosen U.S. export policies for encryption tools and was backed by President Clinton. But following concerns expressed by FBI Director Louis Freeh that terrorists and criminals increasingly will use encryption technology to scramble digital information stored in computers or sent over the Internet, the act took a markedly different tone in the Commerce Committee. At issue last night was the Oxley-Manton Amendment proposed by representatives Michael Oxley, a Republican from Ohio, and Thomas Manton, a Democrat from New York, to give the FBI and other law enforcement agencies access to encrypted information by providing them with the "keys" to unlock encrypted material. "This technology, in criminal hands or the hands of enemies of the United States, can be turned to ill purposes with devastating consequences for members of a free society," Oxley said in a position statement available on his Web site. "I'm speaking here of terrorists. Antigovernment militants. Organized crime syndicates. Drug cartels. Child pornographers. Pedophiles," he said in the statement. According to Oxley's position, "Nothing in our amendment will alter in any way the authority of government agencies to access private material. The same constitutional protections for privacy will continue to apply. We are merely talking about building-in the technical capability to decrypt encoded communications when there is a warrant to do so." A substitute amendment by representatives Ed Markey, a Democrat from Massachusetts, and Rick White, a Republican from Washington State, received the Commerce Committee's approval. The Markey-White amendment suggests the creation of a National Electronic Technologies Center, or "NET Center" to provide information and help regarding decryption technologies and techniques to federal law enforcement agencies. The Markey-White amendment will also double the jail sentence for criminals who use encryption. A companion Senate bill, introduced by Republican John McCain from Arizona and Democrat Bob Kerrey from Nebraska, remains alive this session. That bill also is seen as a threat by some because it proposes domestic controls on encryption use. By and large, amendments to the House and Senate bills have been greeted with dismay by the software and hardware segments of the industry, which have long supported a move toward changes in encryption-tool export regulations. Leading U.S. scientific, mathematics, and engineering societies have also joined forces to protest the proposed encryption legislation, arguing that "U.S. leadership in many areas of science and technology is likely to be jeopardized with no discernible benefits to our national interests," according to a joint statement. Currently, U.S. businesses are allowed by law to freely export encryption tools based on 40-bit encryption. Exporting 56-bit key-recovery technology requires that private keys be used by two parties to encode and decode material. The restriction on the open export of more powerful tools has been in place because of national security concerns -- the same issues that have bogged down the SAFE Act of late. U.S. businesses may export encryption tools of greater strength if they show that the product qualifies for "key management infrastructure treatment," said Elizabeth Rindskopf, former general counsel of the CIA, now with Bryan Cave, a top-20 U.S. law firm. Businesses have argued they are seriously hampered by not being allowed to easily market more powerful tools overseas. The U.S. government restriction on imports was imposed because of fears that criminals and terrorists would encrypt information, keeping law enforcement agencies from monitoring activities. Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Cost of Promoting Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This information came to me from an on-line writers newsletter: >"Books-A-Million, the 4th largest bookselling chain in the U.S.... >charge[s] for instore promotion, thusly: > >"$750 for a hardback or tpb to be featured in their New & Notable section. > $500 for a paperback. > $7500 for books that the store employees must read and promote. > $12,000 for books which the company president puts his "seal of approval" on. > $600 to be included in the "product knowledge video" for 60 seconds. > $900 for 90 seconds. > $2,500 for a 5-minute spot on their "training video." > $3,000 to be placed in their Christmas catalog. > $1,500 to be placed on the side of ONE of the chain's trucks. > $3,500 for an ad on the side of FOUR trucks. > $6,200 for an ad on EIGHT trucks. > $3,500 for a publisher logo or book title on 100,000 paper bags. > $150 to get on the store's welcome mat, per store, for 3 months. > $450 to get featured in the children's story hour. > >"This is courtesy of today's Washington POST, the Style section. The article >is the usual one about the demise of the midlist and the malign influence of >huge megabookstores. I can foresee a day when writers will get charged for >coming into a store for book signings." Food for thought. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary C Arens Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born >>>>>>As far as males and female animals being more likely to fight in a group. Most of you haven't met my current group of 6 cats (all spayed or neutered, but the 3 month old kitten). I now have 2 males, and 4 females, and the girls are the "bad boys." . . . . So at least in that group, the arguement is shot full of holes. Karen Litman<<<<<<<< The keywords there are "all spayed or neutered." I have four large (knee-high and up) dogs (3 male, 1 female) and one ex-male cat. I didn't have too many problems with my first two males, one was quite a bit older (Prince - he's 10) than the other (Duke 4?). Whenever Duke started trying to dominate Prince in my presence I came down hard on him and made a fuss over Prince, so he eventually got the message. When my aunt died I inherited her dogs. One I had to put to sleep (11) because he forgot himself and tried to sink his teeth in my arm (thankfully I had a heavy sweater on and he was old). Skipper (7) and Duke, however, were a problem as they would occasionally get into blood-drawing fights. Duke is twice as large as Skipper, but Skipper wouldn't stay down. In nature they were very both very loving, but they both thought they owned me, esp. Duke. The mayhem eventually stopped when I had Skipper fixed, but Duke still dislikes him. Mary @xxxxxx.~>-- Arensmc@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:08:31 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Susan Ross Moore Subject: Out for a few days Comments: To: ddeb2-list@xxxxxx.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I know I lurk more than I participate, but I'll be offline from today (leaving in an hour or so) until Sunday evening. We'll be at Contact, a science fiction convention in Evansville, Indiana this weekend. Catch up with everything on Monday evening. Susan ******************************************************************** Visit the Fannish Enterprises Web page at: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/fannishenterprises In memory of Babylon 5 and X-Files fan Stephanie (Goblin) Etmanski, who passed away January 17, 1997 In memory of guitarist Marcel Dadi, who died in the TWA Flight 800 plane crash July 17, 1996 -- on my birthday ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:03:50 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Out for a few days Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I know I lurk more than I participate, but I'll be offline from today >(leaving in an hour or so) until Sunday evening. We'll be at Contact, a >science fiction convention in Evansville, Indiana this weekend. > Enjoy Contact, and say hi to Timothy Lane and Joseph Major of FOSFAX for me. I'd wanted to attend that con, but I'm so monstrously busy with classes that I decided I couldn't go to it and to Archon the following week (and I'm thinking that I may have to cancell my plans to go to Archon and just eat the cost of my membership and art-show hanging fees). Maybe next year will be better and I'll be able to meet you at it. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:40:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:40:04 -0500 Jean Lorrah writes: >The answer is a class of Donors who forego the joy of transfer for >other >reasons (money, most probably). They are induced by new technology >developed by the Tecton when it sees its grip on society dissolving as >more >and more S~G couples just go to one another instead of the Sime >Centers each >month. > >These Gens never give transfer; they always donate through channels, >and >their selyn runs the world. The Tecton is happy, because it now >controls >the world's power source, so it can let go of its need to keep Sime >from Gen >divided. Most people, Sime and Gen, are happy, because they are free >to >find their natural partners. > An alternative motivation here is 'religious' in nature. I can just see those wishing to live a life apart joining the equivalent of monestaries and nunneries. (Not necessarily separated by gender.) Instead of or in addition to vows of abstinence they would take vows against giving transfer. I don't see any reason why both groups of Gen couldn't exist. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:46:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:21:55 -0400 Elizabeth Sheeks writes: >How would the Sime/Gen universe react to such a show? Ok, let's call >it "The >Border", because a line literally divides Sime/Gen. Set it in the time >after >Unity, but before the borders dissolve. The Gen would probably be in >Gen >Patrol, and the Sime a channel in a center right ON the border. [Snip] Anyway, back to The >Border. The >Gen has two children close to changeover, so he's quite concerned--one >of his >duties is to kill children in changeover. The channel is trying to >change >that attitude, but at times it seems impossible. Now, in the first >episode, >I'd set up both situations (two hours premiere, probably) and then let >them >collide. The Patrolman finds out that new regulations require him to >Donate--the poobahs in New Washington figure that'll reduce the death >rate of >Patrolmen. (think about all the stuff Patrolmen have to do---ride to >local >towns, chase fugitives who sometimes are Distect or junct, do >paperwork >(yep--they still have red tape) and, uh, kill kids in changeover.) >It'd make >sense for Patrolmen to donate, to avoid kids getting fixed on them. >(Jean, >do Gen Patrol have women? I know Sime Patrol do, but I don't think >Gens do. >And if so, when did the Gen Patrol accept women?) This guy is big and >tough, >but his friends have to knock him out and drag him to the center--he >HAS to >donate, or lose his job. The channel has to deal with this out cold >Patrolman, while dealing with other crisises--an obnoxious >channel--somewhat >like the guy in the Den & Rital stories, regulations from the Tecton, >(thank >you, PTB!) etc. The rest of the series would deal with both's growing >friendship, and the changeover of the Gen's channel son (?) The show >probably >would be something like that. If you have a better idea, let us know. > Forget the future TV show. This sounds like a great story line to me. Any writers want to tackle it? I would love to read stories, novellas, even novels about this setup. Please, don't do it as a script. I have a hard time reading those. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCCA8E.8D880640" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCA8E.8D880640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sandra Gray wrote: Hmmm...would there also be Sime~Gen pornography? And perhaps a show with interaction between Simes and Gens along the lines of "Alien Nation"? JL here: The answer is yes, of course, and much much more because the = riveting fantasies that would be most popular would be the ones = involving teasing intil (especially in the times when this is illicit = and most severely frowned upon). ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCA8E.8D880640 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgYTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYASAIAAAIAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAMAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAFNJTUVHRU4tTCBEaXNj dXNzaW9uIExpc3QAU01UUABTSU1FR0VOLUxAU0lVLkVEVQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAEgAAAFNJTUVHRU4tTEBTSVUuRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA HAAAACdTSU1FR0VOLUwgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBMaXN0JwACAQswAQAAABcAAABTTVRQOlNJTUVHRU4t TEBTSVUuRURVAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAAwwAAAADAAAwBAAAAAsA Dw4BAAAAAgH/DwEAAABlAAAAAAAAALU7wsAsdxAaobwIACsqVsIVAAAAZyom4lYd0RGQSACgJD0k EiSAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABzaW1lZ2VuLWwAU01UUABzaW1lZ2VuLWxAc2l1 LmVkdQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAEgAAAHNpbWVnZW4tbEBzaXUuZWR1 AAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAADAAAACdzaW1lZ2VuLWwnAAIBCzABAAAAFwAAAFNN VFA6U0lNRUdFTi1MQFNJVS5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgAAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAEoWMB BIABAB4AAABSRTogTnVtYmVycyBvZiBTaW1lL0dlbnMgQm9ybgDdCQEFgAMADgAAAM0HCQAaAA8A DAAFAAUAHAEBIIADAA4AAADNBwkAGgAPAAYAMQAFAEIBAQmAAQAhAAAAQTEyMTQxOEU3RDM2RDEx MTkwNDgwMEEwMjQzRDI0MTIAvgYBA5AGAIQDAAAUAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAA AwAuAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBgLOoTsMq8AR4AcAABAAAAHgAAAFJFOiBOdW1iZXJzIG9mIFNp bWUvR2VucyBCb3JuAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbzKsBPqjkEhuzZ9EdGQSACgJD0kEgAAHgAeDAEA AAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAAA0AAAB6ZW9yQHVjcy5uZXQAAAAAAwAGEI+cMDQDAAcQSAEA AB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFNBTkRSQUdSQVlXUk9URTpITU1NV09VTERUSEVSRUFMU09CRVNJTUVHRU5Q T1JOT0dSQVBIWT9BTkRQRVJIQVBTQVNIT1dXSVRISU5URVJBQ1RJT05CRVRXRUVOU0lNRVNBTkQA AAAAAgEJEAEAAAD4AQAA9AEAAAEDAABMWkZ1ZDFEN/8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArA c2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIM AQZjAEAGAmRyYSBHERsgeSB3A2B0ZTrDCoUKi2xpMzYN8AtVaxQiDAFwG7JjBUAKhUgqbR+ALh+w dwhgbGRIIHRoBJBlIAdAcyhvIGIggFMHcX5HSQnwIHAFsG5vCcBh4HBoeT8gE3AbACGgGwSQEcBw BCAbMHNob+53CoUD8CBAIAuAG9AbIM0e0GkCICDhdHcJ4SETfyMxIqEhcSMxFZAZACAyIAUdQG4H kW9mICJBJx1ACfAKhU5hJOIiP0ccDx0eGjlKTCAgUjp9InBUJxEAcSVgBcAEACD6eQeQLCeSBaAI cBHwLZD5JhJtdRGwLpUFsCCAIPB4Y2F1EfAicCcCBRB29xIAC4Am4GYAcAGQAJAHkb8gQCiwG5Af 8yDxBGBzBUD9IbBwIAAj8jH2JwICIAeR9QuAdgbwdjCyG9AxMSbRWyRxAxEoB5Ai0GMHMWzfG4AL gCbzJOAHgncgUDay9y0xN+I2YGk2MAVALmMygt8R8DCAFgA2cQNRdydgICDidSGwbikuInAqvR6N BRUhAD0AAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzBgKEdXr8q8AUAACDBgKEdXr8q8AR4APQABAAAABQAA AFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADp5Q== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCCA8E.8D880640-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:55:31 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Books versus Net Regarding the issue of buying new books versus downloading stories on the Web, I want to make the observation, that is a third alternative: used books. With the price of a new paperback book so high, unless the book is brand new, many readers will go to used bookstores and buy a copy that is used, but in good condition, at a very low price. I think that when we consider where people are buying their books, we are neglecting to consider this. Unfortunately for the writer, the writer gets no money whatsover when a book is sold for the second time, and also no feedback as to a new person who has purchased the book. The plus side is that the reader who discovers a series for the first time, and rushes out to buy all the old books used, and is really into the writer's works, will probably be ready to buy the next book in the series new. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:57:09 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LIONESS1 Subject: Books and the Wave of the Future Regarding books and the net: I am a computer programmer analyst/systems analyst, and I work with computers all day, however I just cannot get into reading a book on the net. I love the physical feel and look of a "real" paper book. In fact, I sometimes will buy, or not buy, a book mostly based on what is in it, but also partly based on what the book physically looks like. You just don't get that feeling on the Net. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: used books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The reason writers don't worry much about used books is that there cannot be any used books unless they are first new books. Even before the corporate interests took over, publishers necessarily cared only how many new units of each book they could sell--as a matter of fact, the same copy read by many different people is a _bad_ thing for them, as everyone after the first reader is a lost sale. The publisher loses just as much as the writer on that one. So yes, used book stores do make it possible to provide op books to new readers, and they help to build fans, but they do nothing to help a writer make another sale. Unfortunately, in today's market the aftermarket is virtually no help to lesser-kinown writers at all--in theory, an author could build a following of millions of fans through the same 10,000 books passing through many hands--but no publisher would touch another book by an author whose last one sold only 10,000 copies! Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:44:22 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The answer is a class of Donors who forego the joy of transfer for other >reasons (money, most probably). They are induced by new technology >developed by the Tecton when it sees its grip on society dissolving as more >and more S~G couples just go to one another instead of the Sime Centers each >month. > Perhaps people who wish to pursue life paths that aren't particularly remunerative, like a career in the arts. It would be especially true if being that kind of donor didn't require a large outlay of time -- say just a few hours per month to go in for one's donation appointment. Then, instead of having to spend the bulk of one's time busting one's butt to make eating-money and having only slivers of time left over to pursue one's art, one could give only a sliver of one's time in return for enough money to live on and have the rest for one's art. Of course there is the question of whether making such a faustian bargain would make one a better or worse artist (whether having something missing would make you more driven or dull your sensitivity). "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:44 PM 9/28/97 -1758, Leigh wrote: >Perhaps people who wish to pursue life paths that aren't particularly >remunerative, like a career in the arts. It would be especially true if >being that kind of donor didn't require a large outlay of time -- say just >a few hours per month to go in for one's donation appointment. Then, >instead of having to spend the bulk of one's time busting one's butt to >make eating-money and having only slivers of time left over to pursue one's >art, one could give only a sliver of one's time in return for enough money >to live on and have the rest for one's art. > >Of course there is the question of whether making such a faustian bargain >would make one a better or worse artist (whether having something missing >would make you more driven or dull your sensitivity). > Just as deprivation and loss don't actually improve the art of most artists in our world (we hear about the ones who rise above it, not the ones who sink), the same thing would be true in the S~G universe. A few would turn their yearnings into great art, and the rest would produce the mediocre art to which their talent and temperament led them. Also, much would depend on the direction of the artist's art, and the kind of art appreciated by the society in which that artist lived, exactly as in our world. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:01:15 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacquelyn A Sykes Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:57:09 -0400 LIONESS1 writes: >Regarding books and the net: I am a computer programmer >analyst/systems >analyst, and I work with computers all day, however I just cannot get >into >reading a book on the net. I love the physical feel and look of a >"real" >paper book. In fact, I sometimes will buy, or not buy, a book mostly >based >on what is in it, but also partly based on what the book physically >looks >like. You just don't get that feeling on the Net. > The solution to this is to use your word processor to format the downloaded file with the margin settings you want and print it out yourself. Yes, you must absorb the cost of the ink and the paper but you will have printed pages. If you don't have access to a binding machine at work, most copy places have them and will let you use them for a fee. Some fans also have them. (We have one which uses the plastic combs many fanzines come with today. We let other fans use it for free, although we may ask for some money for new combs.) Once you have bound your pages you will have a real book in your hands! I haven't done this with novels yet, but I have done it with novellas. Jacquelyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:01 PM 9/28/97 -0500, Jacquelyn wrote: >On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:57:09 -0400 LIONESS1 >writes: >>I love the physical feel and look of a >>"real" >>paper book. >> >The solution to this is to use your word processor to format the >downloaded file with the margin settings you want and print it out >yourself. Yes, you must absorb the cost of the ink and the paper but you >will have printed pages. The feeling changes with time--and especially with the acquisition of a notebook computer. It started changing for me when I got my first clamshell 8086 way back in the mid-1980's. Once I could lie comfortably on the couch and read from a bright high-contrast screen (it was the wonderful blue-on-white easy-on-the-eyes Zenith before the whole company went to hell), I lost the compelling need to print everything out to read. More and more, the home computer is becoming the notebook. Only people who want to attach scanners and other desktop equipment will buy desktops in the future--the little notebooks sitting on desktops in ST-TNG are exactly what many people have now and will have more and more. And now, notebooks come with large, full-color screens and Internet access. A well-designed HTML document (not a badly designed one) is easy to read, and to download for later reading in your browser. You can change the size of the font to make it easier to read, and if you have downloaded it you can even change the background color to something your eyes prefer. No need to go to the bother of printing and binding. Furthermore, my fanzines are all over the house, in no special order--consequently I can never find what I'm looking for. But my fiction floppies are all in one box. Seriously, how many people read fanzines in the bathtub? My notebook goes everywhere else--I have read from screen in waiting rooms, airports, hotel and motel rooms, on the couch, in bed, and on the floor. If I were ever passenger rather than driver on long car trips, I would get a connector so I could run it in the car, but as it is I'm always driving. So as more and more of you get notebooks, you will lose that hatred of reading from screen as it becomes not only comfortable, but much easier to find and read whatever you want. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 00:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future << The solution to this is to use your word processor to format the downloaded file with the margin settings you want and print it out yourself. Yes, you must absorb the cost of the ink and the paper but you will have printed pages. If you don't have access to a binding machine at work, most copy places have them and will let you use them for a fee. Some fans also have them. (We have one which uses the plastic combs many fanzines come with today. We let other fans use it for free, although we may ask for some money for new combs.) Once you have bound your pages you will have a real book in your hands! I haven't done this with novels yet, but I have done it with novellas. Jacquelyn >> Personally, this solution isn't satisfying to me either. I think it'sthe fact that I frequented libraries as a child, book stores later on, etc. The printing out of something to paper from the internet is no more than a glorified fanzine (I should know as editor of CZ) and I would much rather have a "real book" in my hands any time. Sorry. I am probably in the minority, but that'smy personal feeling on this ---- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:55:00 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Personally, this solution isn't satisfying to me either. I think it'sthe > fact that I frequented libraries as a child, book stores later on, etc. The > printing out of something to paper from the internet is no more than a > glorified fanzine (I should know as editor of CZ) and I would much rather > have a "real book" in my hands any time. Sorry. I am probably in the > minority, but that'smy personal feeling on this ---- Karen Litman If this is the only option, I'm taking bookbinding classes and laying in a stock of hardcover board and cloth. A printout is NOT a book. No way. No how. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future In-Reply-To: <970929000057_1597353319@xxxxxx.com> from "Karen Litman" at Sep 29, 97 00:05:44 am Content-Type: text Karen Litman spoke thusly: > Personally, this solution isn't satisfying to me either. I think it'sthe > fact that I frequented libraries as a child, book stores later on, etc. The > printing out of something to paper from the internet is no more than a > glorified fanzine (I should know as editor of CZ) and I would much rather > have a "real book" in my hands any time. Sorry. I am probably in the > minority, but that'smy personal feeling on this I'm in agreement here. Possibly it's simply habit, but a paperback book is easy to carry around, and even a hardback book is usually more convenient to read than a sheaf of 8.5x11" paper. One-off book-makers will eventually come, but they're not here yet. TonyZ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:25:50 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:55 PM 9/29/96 +1000, Jenn wrote: >If this is the only option, I'm taking bookbinding classes and laying in a >stock of hardcover board and cloth. > >A printout is NOT a book. No way. No how. Hate to tell you, Jenn, but books have been computer printouts for about thirty years now. They are printed with the same technology as your laser printer or the offset press at the printshop on the corner, chopped up into pages, and bound. All you are quibbling about is the kind of binding you like. To show how people get all hung up over size and shape, look at this fact: fans refuse to buy digest-sized fanzines! They don't "feel" right, they complain. It has to be 8 1/2 x 11 to be a "real" fanzine. As print media goes down the drain, can we really afford to get all hung up on size of pages or comb binding vs. perfect binding vs. cloth covers? Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:38:00 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mike Giroux Organization: Icon CMT Corp. Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << The solution to this is to use your word processor to format the downloaded file with the margin settings you want and print it out yourself. Yes, you must absorb the cost of the ink and the paper but you will have printed pages. If you don't have access to a binding machine at work, most copy places have them and will let you use them for a fee. Some fans also have them. (We have one which uses the plastic combs many fanzines come with today. We let other fans use it for free, although we may ask for some money for new combs.) Once you have bound your pages you will have a real book in your hands! I haven't done this with novels yet, but I have done it with novellas. Jacquelyn >> Ok, let's see... A novel is probably between 200 to 1000 pages in length. At about 2 to 8 cents per page, depending on your printer type, you're looking at something between $4 and $80 in printing costs. Not really economical... BTW, the 8 cents per page figure is not all that absurd. Your printing costs are basically (cost of paper)+(cost of toner/ink cartridge)/avg catridge life+electricity+(refurbishing cost/average print engine life). I'm not sure about the other costs (but I'm sure electricity is negligible), but my laserjet takes $80 catridges that last about 1500 to 2000 pages, so that's 4 to 5.3 cents right there. Some inkjet printers with only one cartridge for color and black actually wind up costing more per page... On the good news side, dot matrix printers cost almost nothing to run. -- Mike Giroux mgiroux@xxxxxx.com (work) rmgiroux@xxxxxx.att.net (home) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:45:18 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Alien Nation and Sime~Gen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>and if they stay in it too long they die. See what I mean by hard to assilimate? The show focused on two cops, o= ne human and one Tenctonese and how they deal with the alien in the other person. To the Tenctonese, humans are aliens, and vice versa. Fascinating show...loved it. << You left out one factor. Sikes' (Human) attraction/relationship with Cathy= (Tectonese). :) Human/Tectonese pairings weren't favored any more than S= ime/Gen pairings in the early days. Another parallel. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:12:51 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean Lorrah wrote: > > At 03:55 PM 9/29/96 +1000, Jenn wrote: > > >If this is the only option, I'm taking bookbinding classes and laying in a > >stock of hardcover board and cloth. > > > >A printout is NOT a book. No way. No how. > > Hate to tell you, Jenn, but books have been computer printouts for about > thirty years now. They are printed with the same technology as your laser > printer or the offset press at the printshop on the corner, chopped up into > pages, and bound. True, but until they make a notebook 'puter I -can- take into the bath, I'll need that bookbinding ability and a guillotine. Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Books and the wave of the future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jean wrote: >>Seriously, how many people read fanzines in the bathtub? My notebook goe= s everywhere else--I have read from screen in waiting rooms, airports, hotel and motel rooms, on the couch, in bed, and on the floor. If I were ever passenger rather than driver on long car trips, I would get a connector so = I could run it in the car, but as it is I'm always driving. So as more and more of you get notebooks, you will lose that hatred of reading from screen as it becomes not only comfortable, but much easier to find and read whatever you want. Jean<< In fact, my best friend always takes fanfic or a real book into the bathtub= with her, every night. And when I have the luxury of spending a 1/2 hour = in the tub, so do I. =20 I have a notebook, and I still can't fathom myself laying in bed reading fr= om it, mainly because my hands get tired hitting the scroll keys. Maybe so= meday. If I'm doing my reading at work, I'll do it from screen, but at nig= ht, in bed, I'd much rather have paper. Mainly because my hands get tired = hitting the scroll keys. Kandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:58:04 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: SMOF: BucCONeer party plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Folks, we really need to get started planning for next year's Worldcon. I know that it seems a long time away, but that time is going to get away from us before we know it, and if we don't get started soon, it'll be July and we will barely have started planning. The first thing we need to think about is what kind of event(s) do we want to have. Do we want to have some kind of reception during the day, in the convention center. Do we want to have a room party in the evening. If the latter, do we want to try to rent a suite, at least for the night of the party (one of the hints I got from the SMOF's at the Seattle in 2002 party is that you can rent the bedrooms on either side of the suite for all the nights of the con, but only rent the sitting room area for the night of the party, and thus *greatly* reduce expenses). We really need to start planning now so that we can get some fair idea of what we're doing in time to get an announcement in the Progress Report that will be listing major parties. I don't remember off the top of my head which one it is or what the deadline is, but I was told when I was talking to the one fellow at the BucCONeer table at LoneStarCon2 and I'm sure that we can get the necessary information if we ask. But we do need to really start planning now. We need to decide just what and how much we're going to take on, and then figure out what specific steps we will need to take in order to pull it off. It'll be a lot more manageable if we start work on it now. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future Hey, I have had my fan-fic bound at Kinko's. Cost is not prohibitive. Marianne ninetiger@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:00:52 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Mary Lou Mendum Subject: Re: Numbers of Sime/Gens Born Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm not too sure who wrote the above quote, BUT if I remember my biology and >science classes right (and I may be corrected on this by someone who knows >more) ---- isn't the male less likely to be "born" because it has something >to do with less genetic material being a part of the zygote? Something I >remember about females having more genetic material in the XX sperm than the >male XY sperm,. so more females tend to be born than males? No, at least in humans, more males are born than females, by about half a percent. However, males are more frail than females, and have higher death rates at all ages. By adolescence, the ratio is about equal, and by the end of the reproductive years, females far outnumber males. Particularly where childbirth isn't a big killer. I think this pattern also holds for most mammals. Mary Lou ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future Reality check: Back in 1994, I bound my first fan-fic volume at Kinkos for members of our new apa who were not familiar with my work. I had Kinko's do all the work, and had them run off 10 complete volumes. Pricing came to $150 total. I used good paper and heavy card stock covers. Each volume ran 212 pages at 8 point type (I still have one in hand, very useful for marking and indexing). Prices have not changed too much since then. Maybe it would cost $17 to $20 today per volume. How much is the latest hardback selling for, or the latest fanzine? To quote old Yoda: Do or do not. Marianne ninetiger@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:45:51 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Alien Nation and Sime~Gen Comments: cc: Kerry -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Listfolk: people wrote: > > >>and if they stay in it too long they > die. See what I mean by hard to assilimate? The show focused on two cops, one > human and one Tenctonese and how they deal with the alien in the other person. > To the Tenctonese, humans are aliens, and vice versa. Fascinating show... loved > it. << > > You left out one factor. Sikes' (Human) attraction/relationship with Cathy > (Tectonese). :) Human/Tectonese pairings weren't favored any more than > Sime/Gen pairings in the early days. Another parallel. I missed the beginning of this thread. I hope you all realize that Kerry Lindemann-Schaefer (author of the Freven novel posted online, and ed/pub of Ambrov Zeor for an incredible run of years) is an Alien Nation fan as staunch as I am -- maybe moreso -- because she wrote a series of wonderful short stories in that universe and has had them published in various media- zines. She can tell you where to find those stories. She doesn't have direct email yet - but a relay works sometimes. Anyway, YES to Alien Nation. Endorsed Books has several copies of the AN novelization by Alan Dean Foster, (it's not very good as AN goes). I wrote a premise and several chapters for a try at selling an AN original novel. It was turned down in favor of other writers'. If you're just now discovering AN on the SCI FI channel (which I don't get and it's driving me nuts), GO FOR IT. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:07:46 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: M Petrino Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future There is always vanity press if you have some money. Marianne ninetiger@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:13:46 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: VICTORY vs PEACE -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: There was a post a while back that's stuck in my mind -- a new person defined the theme of B5 quite beautifully, but obviously hadn't read the previous discussion on this List. I'd like that person to email me permission to quote her(him?) offlist -- possibly in my column. Meanwhile, here's the quote of the week on this topic: I just saw the rerun of DS9's final ep of last season (where the station gets invaded) setting up for the new season opener this week. Cisko says, "We're losing the Peace which means a war could be our only hope ." ---- Now THAT I could have lived with on B5, not "something better - mankind's last great hope for Victory." It seems quite crystal clear to me that Cisko will Win this contest, but he will not experience any Victory at all. Winning is a concept that has to do with what you get for your efforts. Victory (as a concept) focuses more on what your adversary does NOT get rather than on what you do get. Or, if it's a "glorious Victory" as the Klingons say, then it focuses on how you feel about trouncing the opposition, rather than on what you secure for yourself and your posterity. The first novel ever to win the Hugo -- EIGHT KEYS TO EDEN -- and I can't recall the author's name, it was a pseudonym I think, and one of the words in it was Mark or maybe Frank -- at any rate, the EIGHT KEYS mentioned are listed in the front of the book, and they are about how to think rather than what to think. The material is relevant to this discussion. Following the Eight Keys one can manage to penetrate the walls that cultural conditioning places around the edges of the mind. This problem of Victory vs. Peace lies in that region of unconscious assumptions made by everyone in contact with 20th century world human culture. All our cultures are built on that assumption about human nature. The person who defined B5's theme said that it was about the choice between being a victim or not. The unconscious assumption embedded in our culture is about just that (fear of victimhood -- that it's to be avoided) -- and B5, for me, fails as sf because it is based on that assumption, (that your only choice is to be a victim or not be a victim, and if you're not a victim, then you must be victorious) whereas what SF is (for me) is about challenging assumptions. B5's opening season voice-over focused on "Mankind's Last Great Hope For Peace" -- okay, this is SF about "hope for peace" -- which means (to my way of thinking) that this SF will SAY something about the nature of peace, the nature of hope, and the relationship between them that has never, ever, before anywhere ever been considered by a human being. ST didn't do that - but it did ask hard questions about Logic vs. Emotion (which I've spent 20 years discussing at length). I thought the thesis of B5 would be like that - at least asking if not answering unthinkable questions. It should have been BETTER than Trek. I thought at least one or two of the threatening alien species would turn out to force mankind to face those questions. It didn't happen. I was disappointed. When I saw B5 shift to become nothing more than a statement that other people can force you to fight, and if that happens then you are perfectly justified in letting them set your agenda for you -- that letting others set your agenda for you is how to avoid being a victim -- well, I was disappointed in the show when measuring it as sf (not as television, as sf). It's just WW2 in space - and in fact the philosophical issues it addresses are the same as WW2 complete with Gestapo. How boring. That's not sf. But you see, my defn of what is or is not sf rests very firmly on that wondrous novel, EIGHT KEYS TO EDEN. It's a novel about daring to think for yourself. It's a novel about how to think outside the blinders that culture puts upon you. And it's by the author of another wondrous novel, THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT. OOOPS -- maybe I've got this backwards. It's been a long time since I could get to that old collection of novels. THEY'D RATHER BE RIGHT may be the first Hugo winner, and the other came later. You see how much attention I pay to winners. Both those novels however are unforgettable because they define the essence of what is sf. Neither could have been published outside the sf field at that time, and neither has any of the trappings of sf. Now I'm going to spend a lot of time fumbling for the author's name that's just on the tip of my tongue! Zeesh. I haven't re-read those books since, I think, the 60's, it's amazing I remember the titles. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:13:58 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Subject: Re: Alien Nation and Sime~Gen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: > > Anyway, YES to Alien Nation. Endorsed Books has several copies of the AN > novelization by Alan Dean Foster, (it's not very good as AN goes). I wrote > a premise and several chapters for a try at selling an AN original novel. > It was turned down in favor of other writers'. > > If you're just now discovering AN on the SCI FI channel (which I don't get > and it's driving me nuts), GO FOR IT. And don't forget that FOX seems to do an Alien Nation movie every year or so... I've managed to record some of them over the last few years, but have missed the last couple of movies. :-( Let Go, Let Gen! Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future Jean Lorrah wrote: To show how people get all hung up over size and shape, look at this fact: fans refuse to buy digest-sized fanzines! They don't "feel" right, they complain. It has to be 8 1/2 x 11 to be a "real" fanzine. I don't know about this -- The "Dark Shadows fandom" (Gothic TV series circa 1966) has a nice one in this format, with glued binding, glossy cover that has been around a long time. Called "The World of Dark Shadows" I believe. As far as reading in the tub, I miss it. We have a stall shower in this little house, and books (or computers) and the shower don't mix. ----- Karen Litman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:00:58 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Maureen Gibbins Subject: Re: Books and the Wave of the Future In-Reply-To: <19970928.181607.4006.1.JazzS@xxxxxx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:57:09 -0400 LIONESS1 >Regarding books and the net: I am a computer programmer >>analyst/systems analyst, and I work with computers all day, however I >>just cannot get into reading a book on the net. I love the physical feel >>and look of a "real" paper book. In fact, I sometimes will buy, or not >>buy, a book mostly >>based on what is in it, but also partly based on what the book physically >>looks like. You just don't get that feeling on the Net. >> and Jacqueline A. Sykes replies: >The solution to this is to use your word processor to format the >downloaded file with the margin settings you want and print it out >yourself. Yes, you must absorb the cost of the ink and the paper but you >will have printed pages. > > If you don't have access to a binding machine at work, most copy places >have them and will let you use them for a fee. Some fans also have them. >(We have one which uses the plastic combs many fanzines come with today. >We let other fans use it for free, although we may ask for some money for >new combs.) Once you have bound your pages you will have a real book in >your hands! > Jacquelyn's idea is a good one. I print out the stories that I really want to enjoy from the net. However, I just can't call what I print out a "real book". A novel, novella, story, yes, but not a book. I'm afraid that I fall firmly in the camp of LIONESS1. I love books. I love the feel and the smell and the look of them. I save up and buy the hardback copies of the authors that I really like. To afford that I don't spend money on other things. I must admit that I don't have the spiffiest wardrobe. If given the chance, I'd rather buy a new book than new clothes. I also love old books, so a favorite passtime is to go to antiquarian book stores. Occasionally you can make spectacular finds. The Friends of the Library were culling the collections at our university and had books for sale. I found a small one, without a cover, and a yellow sticky that said $35.00. I bought it, and then when I was looking at it, I saw the imprint date: 1785. It was a history of England written by two knights. I checked with a librarian at the university and verified that indeed this book was that old. Somehow, it had survived all of these years, carried across an ocean and a continent to end up in my library. I love to imagine all of the people who have read it over the years. Two years ago I was given a bible with illustrations from the Vatican Library. It is huge and heavy and wonderful. Printed on acid-free paper, the illustrations are spectacular. It has all the wonderful detail work that you see in illuminated manuscripts. It has a silk cover and binding and real gold-leaf. Sitting down and reading it is an experience! At this point I also have to confess that I like to make paper and to bind it into volumes to use as journals or to give to friends. Everyone has their own passions, I just love books. Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Star Trek Maureen P. Gibbins Phone: (619) 594-3432 Fax: (619) 594-3590 e-mail: mgibbins@xxxxxx.sdsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:16:33 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: VICTORY vs PEACE Jacqueline says about the DS9 finale (which I also just re-watched): << t seems quite crystal clear to me that Cisko will Win this contest, but he will not experience any Victory at all. Winning is a concept that has to do with what you get for your efforts. Victory (as a concept) focuses more on what your adversary does NOT get rather than on what you do get. >> Now I feel better, because her earlier comments suggested that she was disappointed in Capt. Cisko's statements and behavior in that ep. I felt that he did what was best -- the unavoidable response to keep the Dominion, if possible, from tromping all over the innocent -- and he certainly doesn't come off as a warmonger. He even advises Bajor to sign the nonagression pact -- "appeasement," if you will -- in order to survive. It's obvious that the Defiant will eventually achieve its goals (interesting distinction between Winning and Victory), and the characters will return to DS9. The sooner the better! This war thread doesn't interest me much. I want the show to get back to the character-driven stories! The season finale was very moving, though. I admired Cisko very much. (As a Navy wife, although I will never subscribe to the glorification of war, I see validity in the precept, "If you want peace, prepare for war," which was the motto of one of my husband's ships. As a hero of my native Virginia, Patrick Henry, said, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" Sometimes even those deeply committed to peace must fight to avoid something worse.) And how about last week's VOYAGER, "Nemesis"! What a commentary on war and ethnic hatred! It was obvious from the beginning that the "bad guys" would turn out to be not so horrible after all, but the depth of the deviousness of the "good guys" took me completely by surprise. What did you all think of this one? LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:17:16 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Books, production of NineTiger writes: << There is always vanity press if you have some money. >> Jacqueline and Jean, please issue the necessary warnings! "Vanity press" is NOT the same as paying to self-publish. "Vanity" or "subsidy" publishers charge way more than the cost of printing and binding, under the pretense that they are going to distribute and "promote" your book. These publishers are known to bookstores and other outlets for what they are, and their books get no attention. Go to a print shop and oversee the production of your book yourself. Then all profits will belong to YOU, not a scam artist. Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:28:36 -0700 Reply-To: Anpwhotep Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anpwhotep Subject: Re: VICTORY vs PEACE Comments: To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:13:46 -0500, Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: >-- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- > >Folks: > >There was a post a while back that's stuck in my mind -- a new person >defined the theme of B5 quite beautifully, but obviously hadn't read the >previous discussion on this List. I'd like that person to email me >permission to quote her(him?) offlist -- possibly in my column. That was me. Yes, you may quote me off-list, if you still have a copy of my post (mine went into the trash, in service of maintaining more than 10mb free HD space on my system). Contrary to your assumption, I had read the previous discussion quite thoroughly, and found it to be *in my opinion* simple rehash of the same things, repeatedly. Nothing profound on either side of the scale, nothing new, nothing that I found convincing, or even compelling. >The person who defined B5's theme said that it was about the choice between >being a victim or not. > >The unconscious assumption embedded in our culture is about just that (fear >of victimhood -- that it's to be avoided) -- and B5, for me, fails as sf >because it is based on that assumption, (that your only choice is to be a >victim or not be a victim, and if you're not a victim, then you must be >victorious) whereas what SF is (for me) is about challenging assumptions. Sorry, that is not an assumption, it's a part of life in general, not merely an assumption of 20th century western culture. If you're not strong enough, and willing, to defend yourself against threats to your existence, you will be something else's snack. It's only when there is enough strength for the majority to no longer live in fear of destruction that discussion of assumptions is even possible. Society is about providing that strength to humans, who -as individuals- are too weak to survive without the benefits (tools, training, nurturing to adulthood) that societies provide. > >B5's opening season voice-over focused on "Mankind's Last Great Hope For >Peace" -- okay, this is SF about "hope for peace" -- which means (to my way >of thinking) that this SF will SAY something about the nature of peace, the >nature of hope, and the relationship between them that has never, ever, >before anywhere ever been considered by a human being. Considering that it started out as a flawed 'hope for peace', I'd say that what B5 demonstrated in the first season was that high ideals are a good thing to have, but in order to apply them in a hostile universe, you must be able to deal with hostility from both outside and within, from those who don't share those high ideals. In situations like that, hope becomes something to grasp, a lifeline if you will, and not merely an ideal to be pointed at. >When I saw B5 shift to become nothing more than a statement that other >people can force you to fight, and if that happens then you are perfectly >justified in letting them set your agenda for you -- that letting others set >your agenda for you is how to avoid being a victim -- well, I was >disappointed in the show when measuring it as sf (not as television, as sf). What version of B5 were YOU watching? It's certainly not the version I was watching. Yes, other people can force you to fight. When they force you to fight, you must deal with them - NOW - if you intend to survive long enough to deal with "greater" issues. (Assuming there *is* a greater issue than survival...) If that is "letting others set your agenda for you", then so be it. But if survival is not the number one thing on your agenda, then either you are in a society which is strong enough that you don't need to consider it number one, or you already have one foot in the grave. >It's just WW2 in space - and in fact the philosophical issues it addresses >are the same as WW2 complete with Gestapo. How boring. That's not sf. Did you ever read _The Forever War_? Vietnam in space. Or any of the Chylde Cycle? Again, historical situations, mirrored across lightyears of humanity. Or the Cities in Flight books? Or the Foundation books? Every one of them dealt with topics that had been historical or current, yet are some of the best SF I've ever read. >But you see, my defn of what is or is not sf rests very firmly on that >wondrous novel, EIGHT KEYS TO EDEN. It's a novel about daring to think for >yourself. It's a novel about how to think outside the blinders that culture >puts upon you. And it's by the author of another wondrous novel, THEY'D >RATHER BE RIGHT. OOOPS -- maybe I've got this backwards. It's been a long >time since I could get to that old collection of novels. THEY'D RATHER BE >RIGHT may be the first Hugo winner, and the other came later. You see how >much attention I pay to winners. Both those novels however are >unforgettable because they define the essence of what is sf. Neither could >have been published outside the sf field at that time, and neither has any >of the trappings of sf. Just be sure, when you're trying to remove cultural blinders, that you don't blind yourself to things that are an integral part of all living beings - like the need to survive. Anpwhotep - -- Anpwhotep, Hm Ntrw, Wab Anpw inpwhtp@xxxxxx.netcom.com Hail to you, you having come as Khepri, even Khepri who is creator of the gods. You rise and shine on the back of your mother, having appeared in glory as the King of the gods. Your mother Nut shall use her arms on your behalf in making greeting. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: cp850 Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQEVAwUBNDABWNDXhzqsqjxxAQGWEwgAl+J8CW+PYnCdyu3Nn+ZLpVzepUHYr/NG OOBW8bi2/AyJXwLRpchFpoMhwt5ILjD38sur0va6ugrd38OMwVkxCypaQymIGJ4j zSFLHo2ldI7QB5Ywu+hD6sbI6yjVW1a+byCXb1O/Dmx9uEpmHYmGypAHr3WFzQZE HOkChUbmF7lghZ8KKepkSgxILCDj6YJQpTda9bHQ2ty6CxW8rhiNtPu/O3R2r7lt HMM3JbyIGl+Q7GY9CcBLp6F2GzKId+veEgAtHLXPPtIIht6qZngVyIBQRzxlSBZl eAhaTvHihQ7/QqP+nCyuB3jBLOjUo8adHMV4+aOpIRlYwfEaSh4+QQ== =fqb5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:19:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Books, production of DEFINITIONS: Vanity Press and Subsidy Press: This is a publisher who charges you (you pay them) to print your book. More often than not they offer no more services than a printer would to print your book. They will charge you to design a cover and to also bind the book and then they will ship the books back to you. Depending on how many books they printed, you will then have that many books sitting in your garage, basement, storage facility or living room. However, if in a previous life you were a salesperson and know how to market, package and distribute your book, you can probably find a printer (not a Vanity Press) who can do a good job for you. However please note that most major distributors (and minor ones for that matter) will not deal with a privately published book. They will only deal with a publishing company. They also generally will not deal with a Vanity or Subsidy press. If a distributor contracts for a book it means that they have to sell that book. If they don't, they lose money. Co-op Publisher: This is a publisher who will charge you the cost of printing your book (you pay them) but then will market, advertise and distribute the book for you. In other words, you will not have to replace your furniture with cases of your unsold books. After a co-op publisher recoups a contracted amount for its expenses, you get a royalty (they pay you). There are as many different types of agreements and contracts as there are co-op publishers. Some are rip-off artists, most are not. If you want a list of reputable co-op publishers, contact the Mid-Atlantic Publishers Association or the Publisher Marketing Association. They have a web-site. Small Press: This is a publisher that does more than 4 but less than 10 book titles a year. They generally do trade paperback books (those odd sized books that are not hardcover) or small print runs for target audiences. Some small presses will also work co-op deals with you if they like your book and think it will fit into their line. They will pay you a royalty on your book. However, agents wont deal with them (and they don't like to deal with agents) because the revenues are usually very small. But there are many cases where small presses have put out best sellers. Their stock in trade is the back list book. They will keep books in stock forever as long as they sell about 100 to 200 a month. Also, small presses are usually the ones that deal with target audiences, like the religious market, the gay market, the nonfiction occult market, the crafts market, the rock hound market, etc. Small presses generally do not do fiction unless it fits into their target audience. Publisher: This is a company that will generally only deal with an agent. They will negotiate for the rights to publish your book and will pay you an advance against royalties and then a royalty. Yes, they do pay more than any other type of publisher. However, these are also the companies that are going out of business at this time. For those of you who know you have a good product but can't find an agent or publisher then you might want to contact small presses or co-op presses. Usually these are run by publishing professionals who come from the New York Publishing world. Since the responsibility of selling the book falls to them the will not contract with you unless they feel they can sell the book. Also, small presses and co-op publishers are flexible and are more likely to work with you. If you are dreaming of a super blockbuster NYT best seller with celebrities and producers camping out on your agents doorstep begging him/her to accept their money to option your book for a super blockbuster movie that wins the Academy Award, your best bet is the New York Publisher. They will improve the odds from an oogleion to a trillion to one chance. As in all things, there are honest professionals and then there are professional crooks. If you are offered a contract from anyone, always, always, always take it to someone you absolutely trust who knows how to read a contract (preferably a lawyer) and have them explain it all to you. Don't ever sign anything unless you understand what you are getting yourself into. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:48:34 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: First Hugo winner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >But you see, my defn of what is or is not sf rests very firmly on that >wondrous novel, EIGHT KEYS TO EDEN. It's a novel about daring to think for >yourself. It's a novel about how to think outside the blinders that culture >puts upon you. And it's by the author of another wondrous novel, THEY'D >RATHER BE RIGHT. OOOPS -- maybe I've got this backwards. It's been a long >time since I could get to that old collection of novels. THEY'D RATHER BE >RIGHT may be the first Hugo winner, and the other came later. You see how >much attention I pay to winners. You must be thinking of some other award. I just checked the list of Hugo and Nebula winners (listed thru 1978) in _A Reader's Guide to Science Fiction_, and it lists Alfred Besters's _The Demolished Man_ as the first novel to win a Hugo, and Frank Herbert's _Dune_ as the first novel to win a Nebula. _They'd Rather Be Right_ was the second novel to win the Hugo, in 1955 (no Hugos were awarded in 1954) I don't see _Eight Keys to Eden_ on either list. However it may well have won some other award. There are a lot of literary awards out there these days. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: CONS:Darkover -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: I got the general mail-out from Darkover today. Rooms are $70 until November 14. After that rooms are full price and that's a whole lot more. Hotel is the Holliday Inn Select, Baltimore North in Timonium MD. Phone # is 410-252-7373. Holiday Inn has changed its pet policy. They'll accept pets with a $50 security deposit. Apparently the con still doesn't have their whole 600 members, so there's room for more of us. Memberships are $30 until Nov 1 -- $35 at the door if you can get in. Make checks payable to Armida Council and send them to POB 7203, Silver Spring MD , 20907 -- enclose a SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED POST CARD FOR RETURN CONFIRMATION. Marty Gear is running the costume competition on FRIDAY NIGHT. The Convention runs Nov 28 (Friday after Thanksgiving) to Sunday Nov 30. There's a Regency Ball Saturday Afternoon. Filking to all hours. A huckster's room where Sime~Gen will have a table. MZB always tries to make it but sometimes health doesn't permit. Spider and Jean Robinson (whose letter you read on the List, reposted by Jean and by Cherri) are GoH's -- and KATHERINE KURTZ is a Guest too. Hannah Shapero is listed as a Guest. With only 600 members, you actually get a chance to meet and talk with the GoH's at this one. And don't forget this is the con where Sime~Gen meets annually for the Faith Day Ceremony --- although I don't know if we'll have one this year. Is anyone organizing that? I vaguely remember someone volunteered to run the table, but I don't recall who. Kerry and Donell actually expect they'll be able to make it this year, but Kerry packed the table stock. That's enough work. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Book Lovers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maureen shares her love of the physical aspects of books, and tells us that she is such a bibliophile that she even makes her own paper. Thank you, Maureen. We could not have a clearer distinction between those of us who are readers, whatever the medium, and those who care specifically for the medium. There is no reason a person can't be both, of course--but this list seems to have a preponderance of people who do care about the form in which what they read is delivered. As someone who has been known to read the backs of cereal boxes and the inserts in tins of aspirin, I guess I don't much care about the delivery system as long as I get my reading fix. I've gone for the easiest method all my life--and it's getting easier and easier to find literature on the Net these days. Physical book delivery is also easy via the WWW. I dial up the library card catalogue from home, do my research, and put a hold on the books I want. Then at my convenience I go pick them up. I order books from Amazon.com, and they arrive in my mailbox. But more and more I don't have to go to the library at all. There is now a service that our library subscribes to that hooks me up with a catalogue of scholarly articles published in the past two years. I can read an abstract of each article, and if I think I can use it, at the click of the mouse I can have the abstract delivered by e-mail--and sometime the entire article. Free. A different service hooks me to newspapers and magazines all over the world. To cereal box readers, this is Nirvana. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:23:41 -1758 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: Hardship and art Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Just as deprivation and loss don't actually improve the art of most artists >in our world (we hear about the ones who rise above it, not the ones who >sink), the same thing would be true in the S~G universe. A few would turn >their yearnings into great art, and the rest would produce the mediocre art >to which their talent and temperament led them. Also, much would depend on >the direction of the artist's art, and the kind of art appreciated by the >society in which that artist lived, exactly as in our world. Jean > But remember that not all deprivations are created equal. Some are more destructive than others. There's a difference between not being able to supply one's basic needs and not being able to "have it all." Obviously it's pretty hard to be creative when you're not able to get enough food to meet your basic nutritional needs, but it's likely less of a hardship when you're just not able to buy as many fancy restaraunt dinners as you'd like, but can buy an adequate supply of more plain but nutritious food at the local supermarket. Also, when one gets past basic needs, people have different sensitivities to being deprived of things. One person might find it an incredible hardship to have to make do without a big-screen color TV and full cable, while another might well find it a tiny annoyance. One person might find a requirement of celibacy agonizing, while another might find it a *relief* from the pressures of romance. Relating it back to the question of the class of people who'd forego personal transfer to be donors to power the machinery of technology, it would probably depend on both what kind and how intense a hardship it would be for a creative person to live that lifestyle. Also, is it something that has to be a lifelong commitment, or could someone do that until they broke through in the market and were able to support themselves on their art (or alternately, until they met that Right Sime who was so compelling that they just had to become transfer partners with that person)? It would also probably depend heavily on what that society's paradigms of time, work art, the role of the artist, etc. were. If artists tend to be looked down upon as frivolous or parasites, it's going to be different than if they're seen as valuable contributors to society (or a system where beginning artists are treated like turds unless/until they hit economic success, at which time they're lionized). If the society sees "doing one's share" as producing something that's economically equal to the goods and services one consumes, it will have a different attitude towards the people who choose a path that allows them to spend only a few hours a month on it than a society will that has the attitude that it's one's duty to exchange a certain number of hours per month for money and live at the lifestyle that the income dictates and that people who choose to work less and accept a simpler lifestyle in return for more free time to pursue non-remunerative activities are lazy shirkers. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.edu http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:44:24 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: VICTORY vs PEACE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote: > But you see, my defn of what is or is not sf rests very firmly on that > wondrous novel, EIGHT KEYS TO EDEN. It's a novel about daring to think for > yourself. It's a novel about how to think outside the blinders that culture > puts upon you. And it's by the author of another wondrous novel, THEY'D > RATHER BE RIGHT. OOOPS -- maybe I've got this backwards. It's been a long > time since I could get to that old collection of novels. THEY'D RATHER BE > RIGHT may be the first Hugo winner, and the other came later. Actually, _They'd Rather Be Right_, by Mark Clifton and Frank Riley, won the *second* novel Hugo in 1955. See http://www.worldcon.org/hy.html . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:56:40 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Maureen Gibbins Subject: Re: Book Lovers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970929215537.006b45f0@xxxxxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jean Lorrah writes: We could not have a clearer distinction between those of us who are readers, whatever the medium, and those who care specifically for the medium. There is no reason a person can't be both, of course--but this list seems to have a preponderance of people who do care about the form in which what they read is delivered. But more and more I don't have to go to the library at all. There is now a service that our library subscribes to that hooks me up with a catalogue of scholarly articles published in the past two years. I can read an abstract of each article, and if I think I can use it, at the click of the mouse I can have the abstract delivered by e-mail--and sometime the entire article. Free. A different service hooks me to newspapers and magazines all over the world. To cereal box readers, this is Nirvana. ********* I don't want to give the impression that I only want to read material in book form. I, too, handle much of my professional reading in electronic form. I use electronic catalogs of universities from many different places (I confess to a real preference to LOCIS by telnet at the Library of Congress over their web interface). I read the New York Times in its electronic form. I subscribe to peer-reviewed journals that exist and are distributed only in electronic form. I write and read reams of e-mail. But I also subscribe to the paper version of my local newspaper. In addition to e-mail, I write letters on paper and send them via snail-mail. And I can even tell you the ingredients in my favorite shampoo because I've read the back of the bottle so many times. I, too, am a compulsive reader. Maybe it is in part because I am online or at my computer so much in my professional life that I enjoy my books so much. But my love for books has existed for longer than my professional life. Even as a child I found enormous satisfaction in the physical aspects of my books. Some I liked because (in addition to the wonderful stories they contained) they were small and odd-sized and still hardbound. Others, particularly older books that I bought or was given, carried intriguing smells or interesting notes written in them. I will read anything that I can get my hands on. And if the electronic version is all that is available then, so be it. I'll read that. And one day there will be some wonderful new hybrid that emerges out of the marriage of technology and the written word. I'm not a Luddite. If distribution on the web means that more voices will be heard than is possible now (given Spider Robinson's letter), then more power to it and I'll be right there buying the stories. But I still love this particular medium. I love sneaking an hour for myself at 11:00 at night after my son is asleep and my "chores" are done and soaking in a tub and reading. I'm addicted to pulling a paperback out of my rather voluminous bag and snatching a few pages when I'm stuck in line. And I love going for a long walk (especially on the beach), spreading out a blanket, settling my son for a nap, taking out my book and reading. Maureen "The joy in life is in its diversity and the ways in which our differences combine to create meaning and beauty." - Star Trek Maureen P. Gibbins Phone: (619) 594-3432 Fax: (619) 594-3590 e-mail: mgibbins@xxxxxx.sdsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:01:13 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Chantal Whittington Subject: Books and the Wave of the Future MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I prefer reading books by holding them to reading them over the Net, though I can see the print better on the monitor than on the page. You can't take a computer with you on the bus (unless you have a laptop, and those things are godawful hard to read), and you don't have to constantly sit at your desk with a hand-held book; you can stretch out on your bed or on the couch and nibble on Chex Mix while you read. (g) Much nicer than reading a book on the computer. Chantal `[1;32;40mRainbow V 1.20.2 for Delphi - Test Drive ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kandace Klumper Subject: Victory vs Peace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>And how about last week's VOYAGER, "Nemesis"! What a commentary on war a= nd ethnic hatred! It was obvious from the beginning that the "bad guys" would turn out to be not so horrible after all, but the depth of the deviousness = of the "good guys" took me completely by surprise. What did you all think of this one? << My first and lasting response to this episode was one of confusion. What d= id this have to do with anything? It didn't advance Chakotay's character a= ny other than to admit it's harder to stop hating than it is to start. May= be that's the great profound statement of the ep. IMHO, the writers are gr= asping at straws for viewership. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:05:04 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Book Lovers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maureen Gibbins wrote: > But I still love this particular > medium. I love sneaking an hour for myself at 11:00 at night after my son > is asleep and my "chores" are done and soaking in a tub and reading. I'm > addicted to pulling a paperback out of my rather voluminous bag and > snatching a few pages when I'm stuck in line. And I love going for a long > walk (especially on the beach), spreading out a blanket, settling my son > for a nap, taking out my book and reading. > > Maureen Yes. The day there is a small, hand-held reader, about the height and width of a paperback novel, that I can slip into my handbag along with a card or two containing the novels I want to read.. .. then I may well convert. But until I have a *SMALL* reader that I can slip into my handbag and take out when I'm waiting in a line, I will still be using paperbacks. Jenn V. (a laptop computer is just too big and clumsy) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:46:21 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Spoilers (the Victory Vs Peace thread, the Alien Nations thread..) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note. Some of us on the list don't get to see shows until two, three, five years down the track. Some of us don't get to see them at all, but hey.. Could anything which argues & discusses 'current' (to the US) shows please have the word SPOILER in the thread title? Especially if there is discussion of the events and scenes? Jenn V. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:07:23 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: Books, production of Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne Pinzow wrote: > However please note that > most major distributors (and minor ones for that matter) will not deal with a > privately published book. They will only deal with a publishing company. Note, however, that Amazon.com *will* deal with small or self-publishers, and on very generous terms. They will list your book, they will order from you as they receive orders, and they even pay shipping from you to their warehouse. You even specify how much of a discount from list price you give them, as long as you give them at least as good a deal as any other distributor you are using. This may be the "Internet content pricing model" so desperately sought. Publish your own books (our printer has been unbelievably helpful, details on request) and use Net services --- NOT spam, of course --- to market them. PLUG: My book is coming out on November 1, and will appear at www.amazon.com thereafter. But that will be at list price or thereabouts ($48), whereas pre-orders get it direct for $35. See http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ for more information. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:29:24 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Where Is JL?? -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Folks: Some of you may have noticed Rosh Hashannah is upon us. To those who celebrate it - have a good, healthy, happy and prosperous New Year. To those who don't even know what it is -- it's the first of the High Holy Days - which last off and on for almost of month of totally booked calendar. I won't be online much until the end of October. I'll do what I can in between rushing about, but if there's something that urgently needs my instant attention, you'll have to phone me and leave a message on the answering machine. If you think you'll need my phone number, email me privately. Also, I've misplaced my DO LIST. It had 11 undone items on it and I can only remember 3 at the moment. If you've been waiting for me to do something, email me. In that sort of personal POST, please put PRIORITY in the subject line in capital letters and maybe a few !!! too. Oh, and a big thank you to Captain Button who has voluteered to send out the flyers that folks at Worldcon asked for. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Victory vs Peace -- [ From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] -- Kandace wrote: SPOILER MAYBE > My first and lasting response to this episode was one of confusion. What did > this have to do with anything? It didn't advance Chakotay's character any > other than to admit it's harder to stop hating than it is to start. Maybe > that's the great profound statement of the ep. IMHO, the writers are grasping > at straws for viewership. Kandace missed the same thing another viewer did. Only at the very end of the episode do they reveal that Chakotay was not reacting out of his own personal character. What had been done to him was a sort of personality transplant or invasion by an outside entity as far as the morality of the matter is concerned. They used an advanced tech device to force his thinking and values -- to warp them into what's necessary to make a fanatical killer. The stark importance of this episode lies in how very very little any of us would need to twist ourselves into that mental position. The tipoff that this was coming for me was the emphasis and re-emphasis on how utterly terrible the "beasts" were and how perfect the good guys were. No "real" situation is ever so clear cut. And Starfleet teaches that. I did not consider the guys Chakotay landed in the middle of at first to be "good" at all because they never spoke about the opposition as people. Very often soldiers are discouraged from personifying the people they have to be ready to kill - it can make a man hesitate that split instant that will get him killed instead. However, to me the de-humanizing of the opposition is where we get ourselves in such trouble. The "other guys" are always striving just as passionately as you are to do exactly what you're trying to do -- to stop the pain and make things right and good. Even the Nazi's tried very very hard to do that -- all they wanted was to make the world right and safe for the good guys. Think about that. Chakotay didn't admit that it's harder to stop hating than to start -- he admitted that the CONDITIONING he was under was not going away just by being revealed as conditioning. Now, in S~G the Simes kill without hatred. The Gens mostly kill not from hatred but honestly from fear that is absolutely justified all things considered. A Gen who is beating a helpless changeover victim to death is only trying to make things right and the world safe for the good guys. To me, that's what this ep of VOYAGER was about -- how much we all have in common when we're trying so hard to make things right. Live Long and Prosper, Jacqueline Lichtenberg Pre-Order my summer '97 nonfic book, THE BIBLICAL TAROT:"Never Cross A Palm With Silver" from http://www.amazon.com or fans can get a bigger discount ordering direct from the publisher, http://www.toadhallinc.com !!!!!!!Find out how to get the next Sime~Gen novel!!!!!!!! On The Zeor Visitor's Center, click Directory, and see how to sign up for the new novel or read five Sime~Gen fanzine novels now posted on The Zeor Site at http://www.j51.com/~zeor I reserve the right to repost any comment that comes to me that is NOT MARKED DNQ or in some way obviously personal. My SF Review Column is posted monthly at http://www.lightworks. com/MonthlyAspectarian Join the Sime~Gen Listserve or surf the Virtual Tecton starting at Tecton Central http://www.best.com/~shadorat/sg/sgfr.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Margaret Carter Subject: Re: Victory vs Peace (VOYAGER) In a message dated 97-09-30 14:57:59 EDT, JL writes: << However, to me the de-humanizing of the opposition is where we get ourselves in such trouble. The "other guys" are always striving just as passionately as you are to do exactly what you're trying to do -- to stop the pain and make things right and good. >> Right on! That is what I saw in the episode -- the horror of "dehumanizing" those we are taught to think of as the "bad guys." Yes, the stereotyped, almost ritualized recitations of the supposed atrocities committed by the "other guys" were what clued me in early that the situation would turn out to be quite different. That kind of propaganda is not so far in the past for the U.S., is it? Look at the way the "Communist menace" was viewed during the Cold War. LL&P, Margaret ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:43:16 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Book Lovers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:05 AM 10/1/96 +1000, Jenn wrote: >The day there is a small, hand-held reader, about the height and width of a >paperback novel, that I can slip into my handbag along with a card or two >containing the novels I want to read.. > >.. then I may well convert. But until I have a *SMALL* reader that I can slip >into my handbag and take out when I'm waiting in a line, I will still be using >paperbacks. > >Jenn V. >(a laptop computer is just too big and clumsy) This item has existed for more than five years, but no one would invest in it because obviously the complete computer of that size was on the way. It is finally here, right now too expensive and limited for most of us, but give it another two years and we'll all want if not have one. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:12:23 -0700 Reply-To: ddraig@xxxxxx.com Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Don Jaramillo Subject: EM-14: A Modest Question? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WARNING: The following E-mail has been rated EM 14 due to extreme subject matter.... I was reading some of the Sime~Gen Internet Relay Chat Role Playing Game (S~G IRC RPG)logs today and an interchange got me to thinking. One character had a leg injury and was in the infirmary. Another character was considering cutting off the pants, but the first character thought she meant the boots. He exclaimed, "That's imported leather!" Since I assumed that she meant the pants, I pictured the renSime wearing leather pants. ;-) In our world, the price and availability of leather is dependant upon beef consumption. Now that people in the U.S. are eating less beef, leather prices have gone up. In juct society, leather seems rather prevalent. Unfortunately, we see no evidence of cattle ranching in Sime Territory. That leaves us with only two alternatives--one there has been an ongoing leather trade across the border long before Unity (not very likely), or that Sime society had to turn to an alternative, more gruesome source for leather goods. I know that this type of activity is a sensitive one in our real world modern history, and I apologize if it has caused any difficult reactions. I know the thought does it to me. It seems to fit in with the earlier, "What do they feed the Gens?" question. You know, we wouldn't think it at first reading, but one might consider that in the books, Junct Society has almost been romanticized. It is so 'darker' than most of us initially realized. Let Go, Let Gen Don -- ddraig@xxxxxx.com "Life is not a problem to be solved, Home Page: http://www.primenet.com/~ddraig/ but a _Mystery_ to be lived!" Sacred Waters Nest: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4102 -- Joseph Campbell Rathorite's Retreat Site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9284 ICQ: 2869199 -------------Ask me how to order the next Sime~Gen Novel!------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:06:44 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: Victory vs Peace (VOYAGER) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:16 09/30/1997 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-09-30 14:57:59 EDT, JL writes: > ><< However, to me the de-humanizing of the opposition is where we get >ourselves > in such trouble. > > The "other guys" are always striving just as passionately as you are to do > exactly what you're trying to do -- to stop the pain and make things right > and good. >> > >Right on! That is what I saw in the episode -- the horror of "dehumanizing" >those we are taught to think of as the "bad guys." Yes, the stereotyped, >almost ritualized recitations of the supposed atrocities committed by the >"other guys" were what clued me in early that the situation would turn out to >be quite different. > >That kind of propaganda is not so far in the past for the U.S., is it? Look >at the way the "Communist menace" was viewed during the Cold War. Although I haven't watched this ep yet (I taped it though), the theme sounds like it might be a bit similar to the original Star Trek episode, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield. For those who haven't seen it, it concerned two aliens who were at odds because of color. One alien was black on the right side of his face and the other was black on the other side of his face. Other than that, they didn't seem so different. > >LL&P, >Margaret > > Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:12:01 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Sandra Gray Subject: Re: EM-14: A Modest Question? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:12 09/30/1997 -0700, Don wrote: >In juct society, leather seems rather prevalent. Unfortunately, we see >no evidence of cattle ranching in Sime Territory. That leaves us with >only two alternatives--one there has been an ongoing leather trade >across the border long before Unity (not very likely), or that Sime >society had to turn to an alternative, more gruesome source for leather >goods. >reactions. I know the thought does it to me. It seems to fit in with >the earlier, "What do they feed the Gens?" question. How wonderfully gruesome! Sandra sandragray@xxxxxx.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: rickeshay Subject: Re: Victory vs Peace(Nemesis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Margaret Carter wrote >>And how about last week's VOYAGER, "Nemesis"! What a commentary on war and ethnic hatred! It was obvious from the beginning that the "bad guys" would turn out to be not so horrible after all, but the depth of the deviousness of the "good guys" took me completely by surprise. What did you all think of this one? << Kandace Klumper replied >>My first and lasting response to this episode was one of confusion. What did this have to do with anything? It didn't advance Chakotay's character any other than to admit it's harder to stop hating than it is to start. Maybe that's the great profound statement of the ep. IMHO, the writers are grasping at straws for viewership.<< Then JL replied >>Kandace missed the same thing another viewer did. Only at the very end of the episode do they reveal that Chakotay was not reacting out of his own personal character<< While that is true I have to go along with Kandace in that this episode was a total waste. I don't care for an episode that is lecturing me to be so obvious about it. I don't get to see Voyager until Sunday nights so I had seen some comments that might have spoiled some of the intended surprise of the episode but while it was a well done episode it simply left me cold. It would have worked better for me if the Nemesis had been of the same race, but having the good guys(at the end) look so obviously ugly just pushed the envelope too much for me. Of course I started out with a problem(that only a nitpicker like me would worry about), why is Chacotay there in the first place. Another thing that bugged the heck out of me was how the bad guys(at the end) talked. Since when has the Federation translator failed to translate into normal 20th century English.(and how in the world did it work at all) Rick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Books, production of In a message dated 97-09-30 12:39:06 EDT, you write: Note, however, that Amazon.com *will* deal with small or self-publishers, and on very generous terms. They will list your book, they will order from you as they receive orders, and they even pay shipping from you to their warehouse. You even specify how much of a discount from list price you give them, as long as you give them at least as good a deal as any other distributor you are using. Amazon.com is a book-seller, not a distributor. A distributor is an organization that actively markets, advertises and sells books to book sellers. Except for what appears on their website, Amazon.com does not do this. Customers must come to them. They don't go out to the customers specifically for any book. We, (Toad Hall Press and Belfry Books) deal with Amazon.com. We also deal with several distributors. Through our distributors we have sold thousands of books (that's sold as opposed to shipped. A shipped book can be returned, a sold one can't). Through Amazon.com we've, to date, received about 12 orders for single books. As a consumer, I love Amazon.com. It's much easier than searching through a bookstore and, when ordering several books, it does end up to be cheaper. However, as a publisher, they do not sell the numbers as yet, as other outlets sell. Of course, as more people hear about Amazon.com, I'm sure this will change. But for now (and even later) I would not put all my eggs in one basket. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Cheryl Wolverton Subject: Re: Where Is JL? & My daughter Comments: cc: LuLacroix@xxxxxx.com Will miss your posts, JL.:(((( But understand. While I'm here...I want to share some "proud mama" news...no, this has nothing to do with Sime/Gen...except to say I hope my daughter changes over instead of establishing..... My daughter joined ROTC this year, her first year in high school...you can take it instead of PE..... She also joined the Rifle team[I told her to particpate in extracurrlicular since she's going for a scholarship to vet school]....anyway... My daughter is 5'4" and all of 90 pounds soaking wet....and the first day she came home with a bruised hip and elbow from shooting the 22 pound rifle..... However, today was her third day of practice[out of six since she started late]...and she was awarded "Sharpshooter" medal. Only one other person qualified....the Major said she was an absolute natural the first day....but she didn't believe, totally disgusted with the few targets she missed:) When I heard she got sharpshooter...I couldn't help but think of Cherri's Story...My Life is My Own where the father kept polishing the rifle...in this case, it's liable to be the mama in a few years:)))))) Cheryl Wolverton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:55:39 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Deborah June Laymon Subject: Re: Sime/Gen stories in their universe In-Reply-To: <199709270500.AAA36392@xxxxxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >This is the stuff that people living in that situation would fantasize >incessantly about - the stuff of which their tv shows would be made, their >classic theater, their nursery rhymes. and >JL here: The answer is yes, of course, and much much more because >the riveting fantasies that would be most popular would be the ones >involving teasing intil (especially in the times when this is illicit and >most severely frowned upon). I'd think that the teasing intil would actually be a Sime fantasy and not a Gen one -- unless it had to do with an In-Territory Gen daydreaming a wish-fantasy in which s/he becomes matched with some particularly attractive Channel. OTOH, wouldn't you, along with the porno, have the slasher fantasies? The Horror At Party Beach, for instance, or Hallowe'en, as a Gen Territory flick in which a group of innocent teens, out to have an innocent party, find one of their number horribly changed -- gasp! ;] -- into a rampaging Sime? The erotica, as well as the purely pornographic? The Dickensian serial, or the Dracula, as opposed to something like The Idiot and The Brothers Karamazov? Could {please _no_} Simes or Gens produce something as painfully preachy as Elsie Dinsmore? In the early years, wouldn't what you find be more along the lines of books and stories coming out of the Balkans now? And nursery rhymes -- I'm sure someone out there knows more about this than I do -- frequently were some kind of political commentary, weren't they? I know that Ring a Ring a'Rosie [or however you learned it -- that's how I did] refers to the Black Death. Humpty Dumpty was Richard III. Would Sime/Gen rhymes be so old and so -- mmm, with the situation to which they refer forgotten -- that they could reach the point where even their cautionary purposes would no longer be needed? Sorry so many questions. I always seem to have questions... never answers... Deborah Laymon dejla@xxxxxx.netcom.com "I never claimed to be a hero, and I never said I was a saint." - Billy Joel, 'Temptation' Quantum Express - When you absolutely, positively don't know where it's going or when it needs to be there Quantum Mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:26:19 -3100 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Tony Zbaraschuk Subject: Southern California Tecton Content-Type: text How many members of this list live in Southern California? Would any of you be interested in getting together sometime? (Weekend meeting, or an evening out together, somewhere?) And is anyone planning to be at Loscon (November 28-30, Burbank Hilton). (J. Michael Stracyznski is one of the Guests of Honor...) Tony Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:32:37 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Elizabeth Sheeks Subject: Re: Sime/Gen stories in their universe Actually, I think that would depend on the kind of cultural experiences both sides has--for example, the "Spoon River Anthology". I strongly believe that someone *would* write a Sime/Gen version of that book, because the themes in it are timeless. That's the point--which themes are timeless. For example, life and death, greed and altrutism, etc would definitely be written about. And as for the Ring around the Rosies--JL had something like the Black Death in the Sime/Gen universe--something called "Shaking Plague"? Now, that sounds like something that would have a nursery rhyme about it. A way to note the symptoms. Same thing for changeover, btw. JL, exactly what is the Shaking Plague? Would you explain it in detail? LS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:46:49 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Books, production of In a message dated 97-09-30 12:39:06 EDT, you write: Note, however, that Amazon.com *will* deal with small or self-publishers, and on very generous terms. They will list your book, they will order from you as they receive orders, and they even pay shipping from you to their warehouse. You even specify how much of a discount from list price you give them, as long as you give them at least as good a deal as any other distributor you are using. Amazon.com is a book-seller, not a distributor. A distributor is an organization that actively markets, advertises and sells books to book sellers. Except for what appears on their website, Amazon.com does not do this. Customers must come to them. They don't go out to the customers specifically for any book. We, (Toad Hall Press and Belfry Books) deal with Amazon.com. We also deal with several distributors. Through our distributors we have sold thousands of books (that's sold as opposed to shipped. A shipped book can be returned, a sold one can't). Through Amazon.com we've, to date, received about 12 orders for single books. As a consumer, I love Amazon.com. It's much easier than searching through a bookstore and, when ordering several books, it does end up to be cheaper. However, as a publisher, they do not sell the numbers as yet, as other outlets sell. Of course, as more people hear about Amazon.com, I'm sure this will change. But for now (and even later) I would not put all my eggs in one basket. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. Readya, A.P.Pinzow "In real life, people don't often see the logic of the situation. In fiction they have to." "Freedom entails responsibility." Belfry Books We publish the books the wise buy. Look for me at http://members.aol.com/Quillscren/quillnscreen1.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:13:17 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Karen Litman Subject: ATTN: Deborah j. Laymon.. This doesn't exactly beling on the listserve, but when I posted this to Deborah privately it bounced back. So please forgive me for including this in a public forum.....Karen Litman Dear Deborah: Your current post to the Sime~Gen listserve prompted me to write. You may be one of the "missing people" we have been searching for. We've been looking for you to obtain permission to post your fanzine S~G fiction on the "Companion in Zeor" website -- regardless of whether or not it appeared in CZ originally. Would you consider allowing us to use your work(s) to post to the website? If so, please e-mail me your written permission. Kind regards, Karen Litman, Senior Editor, A COMPANION IN ZEOR cc: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Mike Giroux, Keeper of the CZ Website http://www.geocities.com/~rmgiroux/CZ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Where Is JL? & My daughter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:05 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Will miss your posts, JL.:(((( But understand. > > >While I'm here...I want to share some "proud mama" news...no, this has >nothing to do with Sime/Gen...except to say I hope my daughter changes over >instead of establishing..... > >My daughter joined ROTC this year, her first year in high school...you can >take it instead of PE..... > However, today was her third day of practice[out of six since she started >late]...and she was awarded "Sharpshooter" medal. Only one other person >qualified....the Major said she was an absolute natural the first >day....but she didn't believe, totally disgusted with the few targets >she missed:) Believe it or not, a few years ago a woman on the Murray State University rifle team won a gold medal in the Olympics. So you never know where your daughter might go with this skill. Stand proud! Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:26:29 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: SMOF: BucCONeer party plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The party at Lone Star Con was a rousing success, so I would suggest that we repeat that if we possibly can. A room party is a good way to bring in new fans, while the decision not to serve alcohol brings readers in and keeps away party-hoppers who are just looking for free drinks. Jacqueline and I already know that we don't want the party in our room--we old ladies need to crash around midnight, but you young folks can go on partying to your hearts' content. It would be nice, though, if we could also have a daytime S~G gathering or Q&A. A fan needs to take charge of jumping on the first chance to put in for SIG space. Good work on finding out what needs to be done, Leigh. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Hardship and Art Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Leigh writes, >Relating it back to the question of the class of people who'd forego >personal transfer to be donors to power the machinery of technology, it >would probably depend on both what kind and how intense a hardship it would >be for a creative person to live that lifestyle. Also, is it something that >has to be a lifelong commitment, or could someone do that until they broke >through in the market and were able to support themselves on their art (or >alternately, until they met that Right Sime who was so compelling that they >just had to become transfer partners with that person)? The Tecton would insist on long-term commitments--and enforce them by inducing these Gens into underdraw. Not even a Farris channel is going to be able to satisfy them. They probably donate twice a month. It's going to wreak havoc with their biorhythms and their love lives. Imagine Gens with the brittle emotions of Farris channels--but without the core strength. Tony's been telling me about this lifestyle--after his life as Tonyo Logan, he had two lifetimes as this kind of special Donor, the first time by his own choice out of a sense of duty, early in the program. After a quiet, restful renSime life in between, in a happy, satisfying relationship, he was again born as a crackerjack Donor in a time when his birth characteristics were easily read. His parents sold him into the program and he was raised in a Tecton school, brainwashed into a belief in the importance of his participation. That time he was instrumental in exposing the abuses of the program, but it was too late for him and he died young. BTW, note the pattern here of the short, tortured life analogous to the lives of the entire generation of Simes who were forced into suicide disjunction at Unity. Tony was Gen in that generation, and saved one of those Simes--he had a personally happy, satisfying life while friends died all around him and Zhag, and they could do nothing to prevent it. In Tony's second life as a special Donor, Zhag was the Tecton channel who tried to save him and could not. As you can see, the angst factor in the S~G universe does not abate even after the Tecton is forced out of its interference in the lives of ordinary people. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu (alternate Jean1@xxxxxx.com) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165/ **I will be inaccessible by any e-mail Oct. 10-12, 1997** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: Re: Southern California Tecton In a message dated 97-09-30 21:26:36 EDT, you write: << How many members of this list live in Southern California? Would any of you be interested in getting together sometime? (Weekend meeting, or an evening out together, somewhere?) >> I am living in Los Angeles for at least another couple of months. (I move a lot for work... currently have another apartment in San Francisco too.) Cherri Munoz, who is set to nomail from the list right now, lives near Anaheim. We'd both love to participate in a Southern CA S/G gathering. I believe Cherri is thinking of going to Loscon... I'm going to be at Darkover instead. --Kaas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:39:09 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jenn Vesperman Subject: Re: Sime/Gen stories in their universe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deborah June Laymon wrote: > And nursery rhymes -- I'm sure someone out there knows more about this than > I do -- frequently were some kind of political commentary, weren't they? I > know that Ring a Ring a'Rosie [or however you learned it -- that's how I > did] refers to the Black Death. Humpty Dumpty was Richard III. Cats and Mice Four blind cats and one quick mouse Ran away from my father's house The mouse was chasing the cats The cats were chasing the mouse Now which were left and which came back To my father's house? (refers to a changeover victim, out-T) Little Del Little Del little Del Tried to make a warning bell Tried to build a wall this high Tried to make cloaks from the sky Little Del. Little Del little Del Boys can't make a warning bell Walls that go too high will fall Sky-cloaks can't be made at all. Little Del. Little Del little Del How did you make the warning bell? (refers to the founding of Zeor (Del = Del-Rimon Farris)) And an easy one... This is the house that Delri built. (I leave the rest to people to play with.) Jenn V. (permission granted for zines, web pages, anywhere else people think they're good enough to go. Or for being printed out and burned if they're bad enough that it's worth that.)