========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 06:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Chantal Whittington Subject: Testing reply, Weird Question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On 30-AUG-1998 22:29:27.3 SIMEGEN-L said to AERDEN SI>Jenn asked for a test. SI>If everyone gets two copies of this, she has fixed the problem. Jean It worked! Question, so this will be more than yet another tiny, confirmatory message: Do menstruating Simes lose selyn during their periods? (This is one of those 'Weird Questions Chantal Comes Up With While Eating Lunch.') Chantal ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:59:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Leigh Kimmel Subject: problems? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just received a large number of messages (coming to my siu.edu address) that various persons had signed off the simegen-l@xxxxxx.com list. I'm wondering if some of you *meant* to sign off the one at siu.edu but sent the wrong command by mistake. "I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its limit." ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian kimmel@xxxxxx.net http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:46:44 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Larry P Ulrey Subject: Re: problems? If I was one, I never sent one. Larry Ulrey On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:59:32 -0500 Leigh Kimmel writes: >I just received a large number of messages (coming to my siu.edu >address) >that various persons had signed off the simegen-l@xxxxxx.com list. >I'm >wondering if some of you *meant* to sign off the one at siu.edu but >sent >the wrong command by mistake. > >"I do believe my crucifixion before the public has about reached its >limit." > ---- Admiral Husband E. Kimmel > >Leigh Kimmel -- writer, artist and historian >kimmel@xxxxxx.net >http://members.tripod.com/~kimmel/lhkwebpage.html >keeper of the Sime~Gen mailing list, simegen-l@xxxxxx.edu >Ask me how to order the new S~G novel!!! > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 12:49:44 EDT Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: The list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/31/98, 11:53:28 PM, SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.EDU writes: <> 5/8 recent messages are from simegenl@xxxxxx.simegen.com the rest from SIU still .... do we need the "zeor" in address PMN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:28:20 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jean Lorrah Subject: Re: Testing reply, Weird Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:40 AM 9/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >On 30-AUG-1998 22:29:27.3 SIMEGEN-L said to AERDEN > SI>Jenn asked for a test. > SI>If everyone gets two copies of this, she has fixed the problem. Jean > >It worked! > >Question, so this will be more than yet another tiny, confirmatory message: > Do menstruating Simes lose selyn during their periods? (This is one of >those 'Weird Questions Chantal Comes Up With While Eating Lunch.') Yes, but not enough to make a serious difference, just as the amount of blood lost in menstruation is not enough to cause anemia. A healthy Sime woman (contradiction in terms if she is junct, of course) easily compensates. Freeband Raider women are mostly infertile--their hormones are in a mess because they don't carry enough body fat to produce adequate estrogen. Often they don't menstruate. Junct Simes have a low fertility rate because they have similar problems, just not to the extremes of Raiders. Jean Jean Lorrah A21711F@xxxxxx.mursuky.edu We have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart? http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3439 http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4165 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:12:45 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Susan Ross Moore Subject: Re: Testing...testing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:40 PM 8/30/1998 -0700, you wrote: >I received both. :) > >Cherri > Me too. *********************************************** Need to advertise or show off a favorite photo? Of course you do!! You need buttons! Visit the Fannish Enterprises Web site at: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/fannishenterprises *********************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:41:15 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Susan Ross Moore Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: The list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm only getting SIU posts and I haven't gotten a reply from SimeGen.com when I tried subbing. *********************************************** Need to advertise or show off a favorite photo? Of course you do!! You need buttons! Visit the Fannish Enterprises Web site at: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/fannishenterprises *********************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:50:36 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Problems I'm currently aware of Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok. Problems I'm currently aware of - if there's some OTHER problems, or if problems I think are fixed aren't - please PLEASE *PLEASE* let me know.. 1. juno.com users weren't getting mail from the simegen.com list. (Possibly fixed - awaiting a juno.com user giving me feedback) 2. archives on the web site not accessible (working on it - it's a puzzler) 3. listserv's report posts going to people other than list owner (hopefully fixed) 4. I had the wrong address down for Leigh as listowner. (fixed) 5. A couple of individuals had problems - hopefully fixed, but I'm discussing those with them. I /think/ that's all at the moment - please PLEASE if you ARE having trouble, and it's NOT to do with the archives, let me know. I'm very very close to saying 'ok, it's working now' and turning my attention to the next job - so now is an EXCELLENT time to let me know if you're still having trouble, while my attention is on the list. :) Juno users: someone please tell me whether you're getting simegen.com mail now. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:27:56 EDT Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Anne Pinzow Subject: Re: Problems I'm currently aware of Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Jenn, Okay, I'm only getting mail from SIU.EDU (except for a list of commands from ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM) though I did subscribe to the new address. Also, I'm getting rejects of postings to the list (from Susan Moore and others), though I personally haven't posted anything. I have not gotten any double messages and I think I was supposed to. By the way, you're doing a heroic job. Readya, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:30:59 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Problems I'm currently aware of MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne Pinzow wrote: > > Dear Jenn, > > Okay, I'm only getting mail from SIU.EDU (except for a list of commands from > ZEOR.SIMEGEN.COM) though I did subscribe to the new address. Also, I'm > getting rejects of postings to the list (from Susan Moore and others), though > I personally haven't posted anything. > I have not gotten any double messages and I think I was supposed to. Hrm. You're subscribed & I'm not getting error reports.. Let's check and see what's happening here. > By the way, you're doing a heroic job. Thank you. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:23:32 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: SIMEGEN-L archives for both servers available in backup location Comments: To: SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.SIMEGEN.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anybody is interested, the archives for SIMEGEN-L@xxxxxx.SIMEGEN.COM are now available on http://www.baichtal.com/kaas/sime~gen/list_archives/index.html, alongside those from SIU.EDU. The files are posted in both .TXT and .ZIP form, and there is also a huge ZIP file of the entire archive since August '96. (note: those who are successfully communicating with zeor.simegen.com should be able to obtain the current simegen-l archives for themselves by using INDEX SIMEGEN-L to get a list of the logfiles, and GET to retrieve the files. The same is true of SIU.EDU until the list is purged from there.) My apologies to those who receive this letter twice. --Kaas kaas@xxxxxx.com http://www.baichtal.com/kaas/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:33:47 -0500 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Kaas Baichtal Subject: SMOF: Attention Website Owners (Re: "Atcha" image) Comments: To: simegen-l@xxxxxx.simegen.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Website Owners: Recently it has come to my attention that Anne Pinzow has sent out letters claiming I requested "Atcha" be removed from your websites. This is not true. As the artist, and the (Federally registered) owner of the copyright on the image, I am perfectly OK with you using "Atcha" on your websites. Please feel free to leave it, and its derivatives, there if you desire. If you have any questions about this matter, I would be glad to answer them honestly and openly. --Kaas kaas@xxxxxx.com http://www.baichtal.com/kaas/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:29:10 -0700 Reply-To: Donald Jaramillo Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Donald Jaramillo Subject: TECH: The list Comments: To: SimeGen List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sending this through both servers. I keep getting a lot of delay or undeliverable messages for the mail I'm sending to simegen.com. Do you think this could be because I am sending mail from my connection at work (where I'm djaramillo@xxxxxx.com) through my server at home (www.stattenfield.org)? Is the list set up to keep out routed mail? Do I need to subscribe at work with nomail so that I can submit to the list? Wondering.... Don ddraig@xxxxxx.org don@xxxxxx.org djaramillo@xxxxxx.com roburddraig@xxxxxx.com ICQ: 10762090 (Work) ICQ: 2869199 (Home) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:46:53 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: TECH: The list Comments: To: Donald Jaramillo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Jaramillo wrote: > > I'm sending this through both servers. > > I keep getting a lot of delay or undeliverable messages for the mail I'm > sending to simegen.com. > > Do you think this could be because I am sending mail from my connection at > work (where I'm djaramillo@xxxxxx.com) through my server at home > (www.stattenfield.org)? Is the list set up to keep out routed mail? Do I > need to subscribe at work with nomail so that I can submit to the list? The delays are because the mail program we're using is choking on mail unrelated to the list - we're considering looking into sendmail instead of smail, which will take us about an hour to swapover. The undeliverable message - is that the one which is now 96 hours old, and which is repeating itself? If so, ignore it. It's from ... how many days ago is 96 hours? when I had a configuration error which I have since corrected. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:36:26 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Verify your subscription MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have had to remove several null addresses from the master list of addresses, because we were getting responses from the mailserver at the host that no such user existed. We also had a few hosts which were reported nonexistant. PLEASE, if you have not already done so, verify that you are subscribed to simegen-l@xxxxxx.com. You do this by emailing listserv@xxxxxx.com with the message body subscribe simegen-l If it sends you a letter back saying that you are subscribed, or that you are /now/ subscribed, everything should be fine. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:57:54 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Organization: GOC Systems Subject: Re: Verify your subscription MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What if we;re getting every single message already? -- ___________________________________________________________ J-Man Gates of Creation ICQ# 2843475 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 20:54:14 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: Verify your subscription MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J-Man wrote: > > What if we;re getting every single message already? Then don't worry about it. :) Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:16:21 GMT Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jeff Zeitlin Organization: None To Speak Of Subject: Test Comments: To: simegen-l@xxxxxx.simegen.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still not sure what my status is with respect to the new list - I've been getting digests of real S/G discussion from the SIU list, and I've been getting the administrative miscellanea that provides evidence of the problems from simegen.com, but I don't seem to have been getting "real" list messages from simegen.com. I'm hoping that I'll see this message on both lists; treat it as a bit of an apologetic "ping". Also, how (if at all) do I change my subscription at simegen.com to send me the digest instead of the individual messages? -- Jeff Zeitlin jeff.zeitlin@xxxxxx.execnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 21:16:59 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: [Fwd: Re: set simegen-l digest] Comments: To: "Jenn V." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3C2D72C33A91" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3C2D72C33A91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jean, I seem to be STILL getting individual messages, my mail server cannot handle that type of load and I don't have the time to pour through all those mail messages even when things don't crash. Please, Please stop this. At this point I don't care if you wipe my address off this list. I can re-subscribe later. I just cannot have these individual messages clogging up my mail box. One frustrated Nova (not reading messages but doing mass deletions Sorry if anything was meant as private E-mail). --------------3C2D72C33A91 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from zeor.brisnet.org.au (root@xxxxxx.brisnet.org.au [203.4.148.34]) by linet06.li.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21375 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 22:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zeor (really [203.4.148.34]) by zeor.brisnet.org.au via in.smtpd with esmtp (ident listserv using rfc1413) id (Debian Smail3.2.0.101) for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:24:40 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 02:24:38 +0000 From: "L-Soft list server at Virtual Selyn - Sime~Gen Mailing List (1.8c)" Subject: Re: set simegen-l digest To: nova@xxxxxx.NET Content-Type: text > set simegen-l digest Your subscription options have been successfully updated. Here are the exact settings now in use for your subscription. Please take a few moments to check that this is indeed what you wanted. Subscription options for Nova Serafino , list SIMEGEN-L: DIGEST You receive list digests, rather than individual postings FULLHDR Full (normal) mail headers (formerly "FULLBSMTP") NOREPRO You do not receive a copy of your own postings NOACK No acknowledgement of successfully processed postings Subscription date: 8 Aug 1998 Summary of resource utilization ------------------------------- CPU time: 0.250 sec Device I/O: 0 Overhead CPU: 0.250 sec Paging I/O: 45 CPU model: 486 (14M) Job origin: nova@xxxxxx.NET ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This server is running the Free Edition of LISTSERV(R) Lite for unix (Linux 2.0.34). The Free Edition supports up to 10 lists of up to 500 subscribers each, and is available for free download from http://www.lsoft.com/free-edition.html. It may not be sold or used for commercial purposes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------3C2D72C33A91-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:29:39 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: set simegen-l digest] Comments: To: nova@xxxxxx.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nova wrote: > > Jean, > > I seem to be STILL getting individual messages, my mail server cannot > handle that type of load and I don't have the time to pour through > all those mail messages even when things don't crash. > Please, Please stop this. At this point I don't care if you wipe my > address off this list. I can re-subscribe later. I just cannot have > these individual messages clogging up my mail box. > > One frustrated Nova (not reading messages but doing mass deletions > Sorry if anything was meant as private E-mail). I'm sorry - I suspect that what happened was that the change to sendmail rather than smail freed up backed up messages from before the change to digest mode. If this is the case, you should receive no more individual messages via the list - from now. Apologies. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:03:16 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: "Jenn V." Subject: Re: SUCCESS Comments: To: "A discussion list for Sime~Gen Fandom" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne Pinzow wrote: > SUCCESS!! Yes, I got this and a ton of mail. Thanks Jenn. I said it before > and I'll say it again. You're doing a heroic job. Oh good. Now there's just Larry, that I know of. Everyone (else): if there's ANY problems you're having with the list, *I don't know about it*, or I think it's a transient caused by the still-shaking-out older problems. If you need to set the list digest or nomail & don't know how, wait a day or two if you can until Torun and Eliza announce their readiness to help, then ask them. It looks like these sorts of settings got lost in the shuffle. If you're having a problem not related to your settings, or if you are trying to subscribe and failing, contact me. I think we have a couple of people in the siu.edu list who aren't managing to subscribe correctly - the address in their email 'from' header is /incorrect/. If you think this might be you, doublecheck your user settings in your email program. If your email address is /wrong/ we can't contact you to tell you so!. If you're really stuck, email me personally & I'll go through your email header and tell you what your email address /really/ is, and how to look for the place to set it in your email program. Jenn V. -- It's amazing where you can go with a completely false premise Jenn Vesperman jenn@xxxxxx.org.au http://www.brisnet.org.au/~jenn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:56:31 EDT Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: PM Newcomb Subject: Re: Testing reply, Weird Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-09-01 16:30:46 EDT, you write: << just as the amount of blood lost in menstruation is not enough to cause anemia. >> Actually the 80 cc a month lost in menstruation causes a mild anemia, leading to the "normal" female hematocrit level being 8-10 points lower than the male during reproductive years .... this is sufficient to help stave off hemachromatosis, and enough to cause mild iron deficiency. I'd presume common menstrual disorders such as dysfunctional uterine bleeding occur in Simes.... these lead to much worse anemia, and sometimes hemorrhage, requiring emergency treatment, transfusion, and even surgery even today when hormones are very helpful. So, if it's a story event idea ....you can have it either way .. bad hemorrhage and concurrent selyn loss and onset of Need or attritition ... or a mild inconvenience... If it's a story idea write it! PMN : ) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:36:52 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Subject: getting into stories Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm wiht osme of you guys -- I've never gotten into Cherryh. Some of Card's I've liked ; others Yawn. Also, I loved the EARLY Lackey stories, but recently she's seemed to lose something (in the latest Mage Storm book, it seemed that it lacked an antagonist for the protagonists to have to struggle against and a clear POV protagonist... I'm with Jacqueline that I prefer one POV character (2 at most) and Lackey's current skip-all-over style is totally the opposite. I also agree that McCaffrey's early work binds me more than the recent stuff... With her and Lackey both, I almost get the feeling that it's kinda shifted from writing because a story had to be told to a feel that they're writing becuase they want a new book to get income from. I tell myself that even that's one up on me not knowing how to design a book from start to finish, but I still choose other books to READ than things without a clearcut conflict. One thing I DO like about Lackey is that she shows (not tells) that even a Lifebond doesn't solve one's problems... even one's problems with relating to the bondmate, often. This is something that I needed to "get" and she helped me "get" it. :) I agree Kethry is not well-drawn in a lot of ways. SHe's too vanilla. Tarma... I can get more into her. And it's NOT just because she was the Only One of her Kind... I don't know for sure why. For one thing, I LOVE her polemic (tho it is a rather unrepentant polemic) in the one story in Oathblood about why, when and how to take "revenge." It's relatively consistent with how I see the world as operating. One thing I liked about Rune (in the first Bardic Voices novel) is that she saw the situation coming of her mother selling her to some lout and she figured out a way to avoid it -- playing for the Ghost and getting out. Following her dreams. But I also very much identified with Talia and Vanyel - whose personalities were So Much Different from what their families wanted them to be, and who paid for it at least 'til they could get out. Jenn - Best wishes, totally, on the move, getting the new home you want, etc. :) I hope everything goes smoothely. All my life's a circle. Harry Chapin Jaye orchestra@xxxxxx.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:28:45 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Re: getting into stories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jaye wrote: > With her and Lackey both, I almost get the feeling that it's kinda > shifted from writing because a story had to be told to a feel that they're > writing becuase they want a new book to get income from. No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money. --Samuel Johnson -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 19:55:09 EDT Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Wendy Fisher Subject: Re: getting into stories Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/11/98 8:30:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cowan@xxxxxx.CCIL.ORG writes: << aye wrote: > With her and Lackey both, I almost get the feeling that it's kinda > shifted from writing because a story had to be told to a feel that they're > writing becuase they want a new book to get income from. No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money. --Samuel Johnson -- John Cowan >> And I'm willing to pay the money... fishydu@xxxxxx.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:04:23 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: Re: Rape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Karen Litman >Self defense courses for the disabled are usually unavailable. >Defending >myself in any situation requires me to be seated -- standing, generally >is out >of the question. Now if someone can invent a self defense course for >the >disabled, I'd cheer them on, take the course and hope I never have to >use it. I believe Smith and Wesson will be the best self defense course a woman, disabled or otherwise could have. E-mail me privately if you want the steps to obtain a permit in NJ. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:01:03 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Subject: statistics, attitudes, rape and assault Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One study surveyd Junior High students. About 70% of both boys AND girls believed that if the boy spent $ ont he girl on a date, he had the RIGHT to demand sex from her. Years ago, when I was on GEnie, there was a guy who told me that if I stepped foot in any man's apartment, he had the right to force me to do anythign he watned to me. Current research indicates that one in three girls are sexually assaulted before age 18, and one in 4-5 boys. Many of these survivors are assaulted again sexually as adults. Many adults who were not assaulted as kids end up being so as adults, tho statistics show that they aren't as often as are childhood survivors. I don't know what percent of them blocks the memories, but someone did a study of kids who were treated medically for sexual physical injuries and after a few months a large percent had no conscious memory left of the incident that had required treatment. Most of the people I've met who were abused as kids do not have continuous memories of _all_ the abuse, tho some remember some and not the rest throughout their lives. Another factor is that as well as the perps not thinking of some acts as rape, if the _victim_ doesn't know that "rape" includes what her boyfriend did to her, she doesn't know she's been raped, tho by law she has. She may have nightmares for months, she may end up needing therapy, needing medications, even needing hospitalization, but she still may not realize that what happened to her is legally classified as rape. Therefore if you ask her if she's ever been raped she'll tell you "no." One aspect of "perpspeak" is that they define - and instruct their victims to define - their behaviors as something they are not. "Weak will" or "Getting carried away" or "I could tell you wanted it so bad!" or whatever. Anything to preserve the perp's belief that what he wants is all right and no one in their RIGHT MINDS would object to it. (Which means he can then define anyone who does object as not in their right mind, of course.) A friend and I were talking last night. She has sat in on meetings of people convicted of incest (court-ordered therapy.) She was telling me last night that many of them have the attitude of "I had it done to me and I ended up all right. So I'm not hurting anyone if i do it to them!" Total incomprehension that "turning out all rihgt" doesn't include doing it to someone else! One more problem currently: we have all these "just say no" campaigns... to drugs, to booze, to sex... but how many of us has seen a family in public and the little kid says no and the parent whaks the kid and shames the kid and cusses the kid out? What they're saying is "just say no unless the other person has some authority over you. Unless your safety depends on saying yes. And looky here! Your safety depends on saying yes!" I wonder what in the WORLD the S~G version of this situation will be? At which points in history... What would it be in Risa's day? In Rimon's? In Digen's? In Laneff's? What would it be in Rathor? In-T and Out-T? In the Distect? As for the difference between using physical force and using coercion or untruth... I think they're both damaging (tho often in different ways) and reprehensible. Also, the earlier the trauma happens in a person's life, the more damaging it usually is, because 1. the more maleable the nervous system is (I've read several articles saying that trauma often causes biochemical changes in the nervous system which are permanent), and 2. the less contradictory experience (which comes with age -- the more experience of being not-powerless at the time of the abuse) the survivor has to counteract the effects of being victimized. The third variable is how much support and belief the abused person has afterwards. If the person Tells and is believed and the perp is locked up -- or at least Mom keeps the perp away, if LEGAL proof isn't availble to lock the person up - and the survivor gets treatment -- then the long-term effects are smaller than if the victim attempts to tell and Mom beats her up with a hairbrush for "telling lies on daddy" or whatever. (this happened to a friend of mine. Her mother broke the first brush on her and went and got another and continued with IT.) In addition, if the abuse begins when the person is young enough, the person may split his/her psyche, developing Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly MPD). (There are some pedophile groups who deliberately electrically shock the victims at regular intervals to divide the memory of the activities into more and more personalities, making it more and more unlikely that any one part will remember enough to be believed - this is also a first-hand account of one of my friends.) The other thing is that having been lied to by the perp, and again the younger and the more often the worse, the survivor may come to believe that all s/he is good for is a sexual object. Which of course can make the difference bewteen later telling a sexually-harrassing boss "You're breaking the law, you jerk. Knock it off" and reporting the behavior, and submitting to "attentions" s/he does not desire. A study was done of muggers who were imprisoned for their crimes. The researchers showed the muggers films of people walking by and asked them how they'd choose their victims. They said that they'd look for a person who was a combination of: being dressed to hamper movement (think of spike heels!), looking aroudn bewilderedly, walking/moving hesitantly, walking with a low-energy-type gait (as opposed to someone bouncing along almost jogging) slumped rather than erect, and/or seemlingly immersed in thought rather than paying good attention to the environment. Abusers as well as muggers LOOK FOR children and adults who are at the vulnerable end of the spectrum. Sometimes the victim is disabled. S/he may be unable to tell (mute or autistic) or "slow" or blind or deaf. Care-giving adults have trouble believing a child "knows what it's talking about", and the more powerful the abuser, the more difficulty, and the more vulnerable the child, the more the difficulty. Disbelieving a child who 'cant even see' the abuser's face is easy for most adults. Sometimes the child has already been abused, and his/her body language screams "I don't think I'm worth anything. I don't think I'm good for anything but a tool." (Sometimes this child has already tried to tell and been disbelieved or even actively punished for Telling.) Sometimes the victim's body language shouts "please pay attention to me. I'm so lonely all I need is someone to care." Perps are experts at reading these signs. Further, (tho this is less a problem than it was even a few decades ago), it used to be that disabled children were put in residential care, cut off from the people who would most likely believe them - the parents. The children in these institutions were often consistently and horribly abused over many, many years. (not just sexually, but also physically and emotionally. The whole problem of abuse "re-wiring" people is similar to the problem that Joel Hogan had... he witnessed a Kill (had he begun to establish? was he almost killed too? I can't remember for sure), and it screwed up his entire head where Simes were concerned. "Sime" and "terror" were linked in his mind even more than they were in the minds of most out-T gens of the period. I don't think Jacqueline really talked about it... bit it's very, very possible that his neuro-endocrine system, somewhere, some detail that controlled selyn flow in his body, was permanently altered... that his inability to give transfer was hard-wired in by the trauma, not "just in his head." Could this have been reversed? In large part, it would have depended on the level of medicine. In his period of history, in the society he lived in, probably not. Had he lived until Ercy discovered Kerduvon (the only way he could have, it seems, was to have accepted Digen's recommendation that he never attempt to give transfer), it's possible that his pathways might have been "reset" as Digen's were when he disjunted or Ercy's were when she rejuncted. As Jacqueline pointed out in Rensime, the Kerduvon was only one aspect of the reprogramming... the intent was just as important. Laneff wanted to disjunct as bad as any person has ever watned anything. One more problem: in sexual trauma situations, it's not at all uncommon to have a person realize she was molested, begin healing, and eventually get so scared she goes back into denial-repression. She may again block all memory of ever having remembered. (I've seen this happen personally... a friend remembered something and a few months later she'd totally forgotten it again.) Woudln't it be nice if we had Kerduvon (or Kireseth!) for survivors of trauma in our present world!!!!! Of course, someone would find a way to misuse either or both. Which would be still another story. Margaret - On definitions of what is assault and what isn't.... there are some considerations here. I don't ask you to agree with them, but only to think about 'em: With perps defining things to suit themselves, survivors are usually caught in a semantic nightmare. It's the norm for a survivor to think she ('ll use the feminie since more girls are abused than boys, more women than men - which is NOT To minimize the impact when it does happen to a male...) has several tasks in order to heal. There are legal definitions of "assault" and there are personal, felt-definitions. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. I'll give you some examples: Boss comes in and knocks woman to floor and pulls up her dress. Boss comes in and stares down her blouse, leeringly. Boss comes in and starts telling her about his wife and him making love last night. (or calls hismelf Long Dong Silver to her) Boss comes in and comments on some detail of her body - her bust, her rear end... Date ties her up and forces her to do a sexual act. Date slaps her when she says no, then says "Don't you wnat to reconsider?" Date shames her when she says no, then says, "Don't you want to reconsider?" Date slips her a micky and "does" her. Date gets her drunk 'til she forgets that she's fertile tonight and finally she says yes. She gets pregnant. Date plays a CD with subliminals in it. She acts on them. Date uses more pressure kissing than she wants... her lips are sore. She complains and he persists. Daddy "uses" his 2-year-old child. Child dies of internal injuries. (someone in our county is in prison for life for this one, btw.) Daddy makes child touch him. Daddy makes child look at him while he "pleasures" himself. Daddy tells child he's such a little weeny, he'll never be a man. Daddy tells child "I'll kill your mother if you tell her." Daddy tells child "It would kill your mother if she ever found out." (This happened to a friend.) Mommy spends hours telling child how inadequate his wife is, and keeps saying "But you love me, don't you?" Child feels obligated to accept mom's kisses tho child doesn't like them. (This happened to an online friend of mine.) Mom walks through living room nightly, dressed in lingerie, walking like a streetwalker. Mom comes up to son and hugs his face to her bosom in the middle of each of these walks. Son asks her to quit, but she does it 'til he leaves home in his teens. (These last 2 happened to an old BF of mine.) Which of the above are assaults? What one thing do they ALL have in common? They all put one person's will ahead of another's. They are all violations of selfhood of the victim. They're all basically the message "My wants are more importnat than yours." Most ethical systems have one thing in common: they state when a person has the right to do that and when the person doesn't. In our society, often we SAY no one has the right... but what it comes down to is that some people can get away wtih it without being castigated and some people can't. The core of JL's articles on honor in the Aspectarian, as I see them, is the idea that this is an error in thinking. That it's evil. It's what makes magic grey or even black. To put one's will over another's. The law disagrees, of course. And the law, as they say, is in some cases an ass. There are many books that go into this. Some that I recommend are: _Courage to Heal_ (specifially to help molest survivors heal) _Toxic Parents_ (for children who had verbal, physical or sexual abuse) _Secret Survivors_ (for survivors who blocked the memories) _We Weep for Ourselves and our Children_ (christian perspective on needs of survivors) and of course, M. Scott Peck's _People of the Lie._ -- a treatise on Evil. What it is, what it does, why. It includes personal evil, corporate evil, and governmental evil. (incl. Mei Lei) As I'm sure most of the people who've read up to here have guessed, I've lived through a lot of this. Not all. But a lot. It's something I feel passionately about. Even the law does acknowledge that under some conditions, "informed consent" is not possible. A child cannot give "informed consent" because the child is understood not to have had the life experiences and the reasoning skills necessary to make it. So when an adult does a sexual act with a child, whether the child cooperated or not, the crime is "statutory rape." Which says that legal consent wasn't given, even if the child thinks she consented. IMO, at the very least, I'd like to see drugging a sexual victim in order to get sex legally defined as statutory rape. Becuase even if consent was given, if the victim was drugged, it was not, by definition, INFORMED consent. There's a school of thought... "If she didn't want to be slipped a mickey and raped, she shouldn't have gone to the bar." "If she didn't want to be raped, she woudln't have walked down the street alone at night." "If she didn't wnat to, she wouldn't have worn that dress. She was asking for it." To which I answer: we have finable offenses, jailable offenses, and capital offenses... is there such a thing as a rapable offense? is there ANY behavior that a person can do that justifies this kind of violation? Mickeys can be slipped into Dr. Pepper as easily as they can into a martini, and can as easily be done at a lunch counter as in a sleazy bar. Some of the survivors who have the hardest times are those who physically had pleasant sensations. It's much easier in some ways to say "he did it, I hated it, that's all there is to it" than to remember "Maybe he was right. Maybe it WAS because I was bad. I must have been bad, to have enjoyed it in any way." (often perpspeak feeds into this. "You enjoyed it! I know you did! I only gave you what you woudln't admit you wanted!") Kiri - I was raped and went back and slept with him. I don't know if I did it "to prove it wasn't rape" or what. I only know that I did it. I do know that at the time, I thought it "didn't matter." He'd already done it once, so why not let him do it again? At least I wans't alone. At that point in my life, "alone" was the worst hell imaginable. (god, that was a long time ago.) Anwyay... if fiction helps me make sense out of my reactions after the abuse, if it gives me clues on how to heal further, then the fiction helps me. If it helps justify abuse, IMO, it strengthens the idea that there is such a thing as a rapable offense. It strengthens "perpspeak". I was able to understand the difference bewteen transfer and the Kill before I was able to look at the difference between rape and lovemaking, btw. I think S~G is one of the things that ehlped me make sense enough to begin to let myself remember. Anyway, I don't expect anyone to agree with my thoughts and orientation, but please think about them. Don't just reject them outright. All my life's a circle. Harry Chapin Jaye orchestra@xxxxxx.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Subject: Re: SIMEGEN-L Digest - 10 Sep 1998 to 11 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: <199809120500.AAA166782@xxxxxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money. >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= --Samuel Johnson Ah, but why bother reading her if that's ALL she's apparently writing for? All my life's a circle. Harry Chapin Jaye orchestra@xxxxxx.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Subject: Re: Rape In-Reply-To: <35F9C897.6A7D@xxxxxx.net> from "Nova" at Sep 11, 98 09:04:23 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nova scripsit: > I believe Smith and Wesson will be the best self defense course a woman, > disabled or otherwise could have. E-mail me privately if you want the > steps to obtain a permit in NJ. The question is, how easy is it for a disabled person to get training? Anyone with a clean record who can sign her name can get a permit, but an untrained gun owner is a danger to herself and others. -- John Cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:58:10 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Subject: Re: SIMEGEN-L Digest - 10 Sep 1998 to 11 Sep 1998 In-Reply-To: <199809120616.XAA07726@xxxxxx.com> from "Jaye" at Sep 12, 98 11:05:58 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jaye scripsit: > Ah, but why bother reading her if that's ALL she's apparently writing for? Once there was an Englishman. He left his home in the country and went to London to become an actor, director, and playwright. He was very successful at all of these. (He also wrote and published some poems, which bombed commercially.) When he made enough money in London, he quit for good, returned to his home in the country, and lived as a gentleman of leisure. He never wrote another thing, not even the inscription on his tomb. His name? William Shakespeare. -- John Cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:33:29 +1000 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: LadyEliza Subject: Re: SIMEGEN-L Digest - 10 Sep 1998 to 11 Sep 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:58 12/09/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jaye scripsit: > >> Ah, but why bother reading her if that's ALL she's apparently writing for? > On the other side of the coin I'm sure there are plenty of people who write from the heart, because they have a story to tell, whose work stinks big time and that we would never -want- to read. Eliza ambrov Halwyn Companion to Zoe Farris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 02:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don - I hear you on being afraid of owning your strength. I long for a time and place where the polarity is not there because it's not needed. Women and men both suffer when they have to worry about "who they are" rather than learn and HONOR who they are. Have you read Allies in Healing, btw? It's really great about how to keep from being a doormat without becoming an oppressor. This may seem weird, but in the past few months, I've found an immense reservoir of strength in me -- FROM DEALING WITH THE PERPS!!!!! I go to a survivor meeting where we survivors and the perps who have their meeting at the same time are togehter in the waiting room before the meetings. This summer, we've had a couple of "incidents" of the perps doing "come-on" behavior to the survivors and due to that, we've been workign in my meeting on options for how to handle it when it does happen. No one's really come ONTO me, but a couple have gotten a bit closer to me than I liked. I was terrired but asked them to back off. The next week, I noticed my fear level was 'way down. I suppose having a Sime who you KNEW would wait 'til you were ready, or go to a channel would really boost a Gen's confidence. It could be a really positive cycle... spiral. Gotta think about that one. :) Jean - We had 3-4 HUMAN cases of Bubonic plague in our county this year. (we're about 100 miles north of LA, in Calif.) Plus at least one dog and one cat have died of it. This is only what was reported on the news. This does not, of course, count the animals who got sick and wandered away to die. This is only a slight increase over 'normal' because there are more insects and rodents this year becuase of El Nino. (the plague is vectored by fleas that live predominantly on wild mammals.) The point? Even the things we don't think of unless we're near to them, affect locals and people close to the victim. I have a feeling that even after the Tecton is no longer necessary there will be CASCADEs of kills. One gen gets scared and dies. The next one that gives transfer is likely going to be just a little wary... which depending on how s/he handles that wariness might or might not get him/her Killed. One entire troop of boy scouts had to take a course of antibiotics after handling an infected bat one of the boys found in the mountains. Luckily, some brave and knowledgable soul too the trouble to find out why the BAT was sick, rather than waiting for the BOYS to sicken. Cheryl - I'm not at all surprised that 6 different women contacted you and said it happened to them. I'm also not suprised that however many more didn't contact you even tho they might have wanted to. It's a hard subject to talk about. Once "out" it can't ever be stuffed back in. The relationship is ALWAYS affected by the revelation. (Somteims for the better, sometimes for the worse, but always changed.) John - I'd never heard about Shakespeare's motives... I wonder how much salt they need... (like Mike at the end of Stranger). But it's a good story. Interestingly, I've never been much attracted to Shakespeare... wonder if this is part of why? Eliza - Yeah, that's also a point. And there are some people who plot a good story and write dreadful copy and vice versa... it's a rare writer who masters both AND has something worth reading to say. (Otherwise, we'd all be even more awash in books than we are now. And I for one would love ever moment!) As I say, anything worth doing well is worth doing poorly at first. :) All my life's a circle. Harry Chapin Jaye orchestra@xxxxxx.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: statistics, attitudes, rape and assault MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jaye wrote: (among other wonderfully insightful things) I wonder what in the WORLD the S~G version of this situation will be? At which points in history... What would it be in Risa's day? In Rimon's? In Digen's? In Laneff's? What would it be in Rathor? In-T and Out-T? In the Distect? JL here: -- at last someone has "gotten it!" At last, no general question that's so vague it can't be answered. Yes, you are absolutely correct that the attitudes and definitions will change over time in Nivet and Gulf and surrounding areas. But consider also that attitudes vary markedly around the globe then as they do now. The cultural differences from place to place and time to time however do not out-pace the differing attitudes between the Sime Society and the Gen Society. Sime Society literally can not overlook the emotional intensity and content and context of the Other Person. A Sime is an empath. In a Freeband Raider gang, the object is to discomfort others and make them experience fear and pain. But there's not much to be gained by doing that to other Simes -- in fact, even among most Freebanders that would be considered sick. (but only most not all). But note the origin of the behavior's motive is the experience of the emotions and sensations of Others. Empathy is the root motivation of the Freebander lifestyle. In civilized junct society again rules are imposed by the society to create standards of behavior -- but such standards are there to be violated. In HoZ for example, the Deference Bidder was addicted to a behavior that others thought appalling -- but not illegal. In Householdings you begin to get a whole new slant on things -- here, Gens are included inside the rules of behavior. And Gens count the most because their emotions are apt to penetrate the walls and send the roof up -- I mean if ONE Gen in the Householding (old time, before really good insulation) is suffering the kind of nightmare-attacks Jaye described, NOBODY gets any sleep. So rape -- that is any behavior that could cause the person to react as to a trauma of that magnitude -- simply is not allowable. Anyone who did such a thing would be summarily drummed out of the Householding (if not set upon and executed forthwith). But a nonjunct Sime isn't likely to complete such an act -- to a nonjunct Sime No means No. And a nonjunct Channel literally COULD NOT do such a thing. It would never get as far as when a "NO" would be appropriate. This very high standard of behavior almost disappears around Unity when the Householding walls come down and the junct society interpentrates -- and what gets rebuilt after that -- say 25 to 30 years after Unity -- is a whole new social attitude toward traumatizing Others, both Sime and Gen. I haven't read Jean's discussion of this yet -- she's probably got another take on the matter. But I did see her note about ronaplin getting all over the place. Right on about that. Nonjuncts "play" with ronaplin -- but only in situations where the Kill is not a threat. I've had a hard day and I'm exhausted even though it's not so late yet. I just finished final-drafting the Two of Cups -- which does have something to do with the subject of this thread I just found here. I got 120 posts in this download -- so way I can read them all so I'm indulging myself reading this one. JL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: Humor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm sure many of you can relate to this one. Rules for cats who have a house to run Posted to the humor list by Helen Hobson 31 Jan 1997 DOORS Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door opened, stand on hind legs and hammer with forepaws. Once door is opened, it is not necessary to use it. After you have ordered an "outside" door opened, stand halfway in and out and think about several things. This is particularly important during very cold weather, rain, snow, or mosquito season. Swinging doors are to be avoided at all costs. CHAIRS AND RUGS If you have to throw up, get to a chair quickly. If you cannot manage in time, get to an Oriental rug. If there is no Oriental rug, shag is good. When throwing up on the carpet, make sure you back up so that it is as long as the human's bare foot. BATHROOMS Always accompany guests to the bathroom. It is not necessary to do anything -- just sit and stare. HAMPERING If one of your humans is engaged in some close activity and the other is idle, stay with the busy one. This is called "helping", otherwise known as "hampering". Following are the rules for "hampering": When supervising cooking, sit just behind the left heel of the cook. You cannot be seen and thereby stand a better chance of being stepped on and then picked up and comforted. For book readers, get in close under the chin, between eyes and book, unless you can lie across the book itself. For knitting projects or paperwork, lie on the work in the most appropriate manner so as to obscure as much of the work or at least the most important part. Pretend to doze, but every so often reach out and slap the pencil or knitting needles. The worker may try to distract you; ignore it. Remember, the aim is to hamper work. Embroidery and needlepoint projects make great hammocks in spite of what the humans may tell you. For people paying bills (monthly activity) or working on income taxes or Christmas cards (annual activity), keep in mind the aim -- to hamper! First, sit on the paper being worked on. When dislodged, watch sadly from the side of the table. When activity proceeds nicely, roll around on the papers, scattering them to the best of your ability. After being removed for the second time, push pens, pencils, and erasers off the table, one at a time. When a human is holding the newspaper in front of him/her, be sure to jump on the back of the paper. They love to jump. WALKING As often as possible, dart quickly and as close as possible in front of the human, especially: on stairs, when they have something in their arms, in the dark, and when they first get up in the morning. This will help their coordination skills. BEDTIME Always sleep on the human at night so s/he cannot move around. (Frightening how accurate this is, no?) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:20:36 -0400 Reply-To: nova@xxxxxx.net Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Nova Subject: Re: Rape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The question is, how easy is it for a disabled person to get training? >Anyone with a clean record who can sign her name can get a permit, but >an untrained gun owner is a danger to herself and others. Any pistol shop worth their salt will require/offer free lesson(s) when you purchase a pistol. I've never heard of one that doesn't offer lessons past basic safty/profficiency at a discount to customers and club members, although things might be different out of the NY/NJ area. Nova (gen chauvinist and proud of it!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:27:47 -0700 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jaye Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On protection... I can't help remembering the old saying "If you think you can't trust the cops, next time you need help, call a hippie." Cops are like all of us. Human. They have their own goals and priorities and soemtiems I odn't agree with them. But all in all, I prefer a world with cops to one wtihout. Like all of us, I have a feeling an individual cop is different depending on who you are... I know I get treated the way I am largely based on how I come across (as does everyone.) I'm glad I apparently don't come across as "punk" to the cops I've encountered. That would n't have been fun. OTOH, after reading a whole LOT of books on different subjects - criminal mind, de-escalating violence, etc, I've decided that the #1 line of defense is prevention, and the #2 leaving the area and the #3 defense is words. Words kept me from being raped at knifepoint in '76. The knife was at my throat, and the words kept him from using it 'til I could convince him to let me go. I took the lesson: that was the last time I ever hitchhiked alone. (My ex and I hitched in Germany a few times, but it was taking rides from people he knew, only.) But we still got in the car that stopped. It was also the last time I CONSCIOUSLY remember ignoring the "still small voice" inside me when it warned me about a person. Karen - WONDERFUL about the laptop!!!! Hooray! As for dealing with the philosophy of violence in fiction, see Andrew Vacchs and some of Jonathan Kellerman's stuff... And of course Faye Kellerman... What I see is that you can't have your hero doing anything violent (other than 'self defense') but you can have the other characters REMEMBERING or TELLING about anything. And the worse it is, the more you want the person who did it stopped, as you read the book. As for 'universal morality' - in the sexuality class I took last spring, we read about several different cultures ... About the only generalization you can make is that it's dangerous to make generalizations. One of our essay questions on the midterm was to compare and contrast one of hte cultures with the way we were raised, discuss what kinds of sexual issues the grown ups would end up wtih. I think one of the reasons we are so hurt by it in our culture is that in order to protect the society's belief that everything's fine, people disbelieve the children. They don't encourage openness. They don't teach the kids how to stay safe. And hten they blame the kids for being wounded individuals when they grow up. I think another difference is that in societies where girls are married off young, tho they may not like the guy, tho they may not want to get married, they've usually been "apprenticed" to mom for years, informally, and they're granted status as WOMEN when they marry... And they can talk over their experiences with their peers, at least those who have already married. They can ask their mothers, everything's out on the table. Curretnly in most western societies, children are used as toys of adults, with none of the accrued benefits of being linked with an adult or defined as an adult. LOL -- the ultimate self-defense... hit 'em in the head with a flying hardback copy of Dahlgren! (just kidding) Sandra - I'm sorry if we offend you, but I do think it's a valid topic, because S~G is very much involved with use and abuse of power, and so is this assault/rape topic. BTW, I start college tomorrow... I'll try to keep reading, but I may not be able to answer as often or as much. If anyone wishes, they can still contact me by private mail at any time. Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first. Jaye orchestra@xxxxxx.com www.wingedharper.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 07:40:47 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: J-Man Organization: GOC Systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Cops are like all of us. Human. They have their own goals and priorities > and soemtiems I odn't agree with them. But all in all, I prefer a world > with cops to one wtihout. Regardless to how I feel about cops personally, I do agree with you on this point. They stop us from having Anarchy, which is much, much worse. -- ___________________________________________________________ J-Man Gates of Creation ICQ# 2843475 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:29:03 -0400 Reply-To: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: John Cowan Organization: Lojban Peripheral Subject: Pommy (was: Guns) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hannah M.G. Shapero wrote: > > You have, I hate to say it, a typically Pommy viewpoint. > > But what is a "Pommy?" An Australian derogatory term for an English person, particularly an English immigrant to Australia. Often believed to be an acronym for "Prisoner of Mother England (POME)" but actually derived from "immigrant" through the jocular variant "jimmygrant" > "pomegranate" (the fruit) > "pommy" > "pom". Emphatic form: "whinging [complaining, rhymes with "singeing", not "singing"] pom". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@xxxxxx.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:59:32 -0400 Reply-To: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Sender: SIMEGEN-L Discussion List From: Jacqueline Lichtenberg Subject: Re: Unity and After Comments: To: Edward Bornstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >JL wrote: > >>Actually ZEOR is the expert on plastics in the Tecton -- they are doing >>bathtub chemistry to make plastics for their green houses in HoZ, crude but >>effective. Ed mused: >Hmm, was the clear material that the Runzi used to cover the sides >of their stock cages plastic? It sounded like it. > >Was Runzi buying from Zeor? Indirectly, perhaps. > >-- JL here -- yep. But they won't admit it. And of course, once someone does something -- other people will figureout another way to do it. So Zeor's not the only source. All people need is the IDEA that a thing can be done -- and suddenly there are 5 or 10 new ways to do that thing. That's CREATIVITY at work, and it's what HAPPENS at the Sime~Gen interface that is stagnated without that interface. Neither side of the Territory border really does anything beyond mere survival until they mix with each other. The areas NEAR borders are more 'VITAL' and so Jean and I tend to write about the folks there -- because those societies have a high proportion of people who grew up on the other side of the border and fled when they matured. But even that flickering candle of creativity is nothing compared to the explosive pyrotechnics that come out of the Householdings as soon as Unity stops the periodic, devastating raids on Householdings -- the stifling political and legal walls that cut them off from the world. And once the genie is out of the bottle - there's no putting it back. JL